Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:02 Welcome back to gig. Ready?
Speaker 0 00:00:20 This is it. Welcome back to gig. Ready everybody. Thanks for being here today. We're excited for, uh, a really, uh, I would say, uh, uh, a unique conversation talking about business ownership. A few weeks ago, we talked with Tom Stimson of the Stimpson group, and we were talking about what it would be like to sell your company or how you would go about doing that. Um, and today we're going to go to the other side of that, which is technicians, and those who have been technicians talking about moving from the world of I'm on my own, I'm doing my own thing. That's all we're doing. And then to, wow. Now suddenly I have a company and what am I doing? How do I do it? And how do I get myself out of the mindset of being an operator and into being an owner? Um, I know that for myself and all the rest of us here today, at one point in time or another, we had, we were fighting with that idea. How do I pull myself out? How do I stop doing all the fricking work? Because frankly it's exhausting and we can actually grow this thing. So I'm really excited here. We've got Joe Mack, uh, from more than light out of Portland, Oregon, Josh grassy, technical media solutions in Delaware, and my good friend, Dave Jensen right here in Denver and compass event group, guys. Thanks for being here today. We really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 00:01:47 Yeah. Thanks for having me. Thanks, Jordan.
Speaker 0 00:01:50 Well, I think we'll go left to right to start. Um, Joe, I mean, you and I have known each other for, I think probably the longest out of all of us. Um, and out of Portland, you worked for another company, then you went freelance, then you dove into the world of labor and handling, um, handling everything with that. What moved you from, Hey, I'm a great lightning designer and I love doing this into, Hey, I've got a good business here. Now, all of a sudden it's time to turn this into something that is more than just me going out and pushing buttons on a console. What was that transition? Where did it go and kind of what pushed you over the edge to move to the next level?
Speaker 2 00:02:35 Well, I, um, I started doing auto shows, um, uh, while I was actually working for another firm, uh, here in town in Portland and I had a lot of national contacts. Um, a lot of people that you, you and I run into the same circles with yeah. A few that you, you don't know. Um, and I kind of saw the writing on the wall that there was a lot opportunity, um, to really do what I do, uh, on a national level. So I started kinda just, just getting information and made it a really calculated risk. Um, and it was right during when the, um, when the bubble burst on the housing market and everybody, you know, 2008, uh, you know, everybody wasn't, wasn't working. And luckily I was, um, I, I just happened to be doing, uh, auto shows for Kia motors. And they were the only, uh, auto manufacturer that was making money during that time.
Speaker 2 00:03:33 And they were, they were double digit growth kind of stuff, you know, so it was like, uh, okay, I get locked into that. Yeah. Um, and you know, I'd walk the show floor and, and people who were there for the last 20 years, weren't there and I was there and it really kind of just set the bell off for me, ding, ding, ding, let's, let's look at this a little bit further. Um, and so when I did that, I, I found that, um, you know, going part-time with the company I was with and freelancing on the side was the way to go to, to kind of supplement the income I was making there. Um, and then, and then 2008 hit and, you know, everything dried up. So because I went into this part-time status with the company I was with, I really didn't design much. I went almost an entire year without designing a show for them, but I was still doing auto shifts. I was still designing on the side. So I, I, uh, I ultimately just said, you know what, I really need to go out on my own. Um, you know, I have the context, I have the work, uh, I have the, you know, the phone is ringing enough and turning down enough that I can do it. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:04:42 That's awesome. And then where does that transition from, Hey, I'm freelance, I'm pushing buttons. I'm doing my thing to the, wow. I should start. I'm hiring people now to then like, do other work for me that I'm, I can do or don't know how to do.
Speaker 2 00:04:58 Yeah. I mean, I was kind of already, when I, when I went freelance, I set myself up as an entity. I set myself up as an LLC right away. So I didn't, I always had the, the idea to, to create a design firm from the beginning. So that was, that wasn't ever in question. It was, uh, when I ended up actually hiring and, you know, people were W2 employees, that kind of stuff. That was actually, um, almost a forced hand by my client because the way they were set up, uh, they had, they had a bunch of freelancers working for them. Um, and then, uh, a, a, a workers' comp law came into play in Oregon that if you worked a certain number of days a year for, for a company, as a freelancer, you had to, uh, have your own workers' comp insurance. And that of like hamstring a lot of freelancers in town. And because I was already set up that way, uh, they, they asked me, Hey, would you be willing to take on more people? And then that way you can work year round for us instead of having to take three months off a year. Got it.
Speaker 0 00:06:15 So you got shoehorned into it. Basically.
Speaker 2 00:06:18 I did. Yeah. I mean, they kinda, they kind of handed me the snowball and said, yeah, just push it down the Hill. It'll be fine.
Speaker 0 00:06:26 Nothing bad is going to happen. I promise
Speaker 2 00:06:31 Nothing at all. We promise. So it does. Yes.
Speaker 0 00:06:35 Well, I mean, yeah. And we have no idea what's going to happen once you push that snowball down the Hill, until it rolls over you while you're trying to slow it down,
Speaker 2 00:06:45 A lot of fun, it was a lot of fun, you know, you, you just, all you can do is like learn every day. You're learning something you've every, every, every day. So, yeah, it was a, it was a good time. Awesome.
Speaker 0 00:06:56 So Josh, you were a technical director, you and I have known each other for, for a number of years, working with a number of national accounts and different people. Um, you know, I remember the first, I want to say the first job that, um, our mutual friend Mark, who's been on the podcast a while ago, um, brought you in, Hey, this is Josh sent me an assistant TD on this job. I mean, that was, gosh, I can't believe it was like six years ago. Something like that it's been forever.
Speaker 3 00:07:26 I'm pretty sure that was like 2015, 2016. I know exactly,
Speaker 0 00:07:29 Exactly. Um, and you know, you were a technical director, no gear, no nothing. Just doing your AAV thing, freelance in. Um, and then all of a sudden, wow, I've got, somehow opportunities have fallen in my lap. People said, Hey, we want you to do our event. And so then instead of saying, Oh, well, you know, we'll farm it out to this company and I'll manage it. You just grabbed it and held onto it. What, what was that process going from that just freelance, TD guy into, Hey, now I've got gear and now I have a shop and now I have all of these things that I'm doing. Yeah. I mean, I came from
Speaker 3 00:08:09 A small mom and pop shop where I was doing a lot of their operational stuff from, from like when I was full-time with a company. Yeah. Um, when I started my company, I knew that it was like, okay, this is something that I liked doing. I like working with gear. I like the technology of it. Um, but it's kind of hard to just jump in and start buying all the gear without revenue streams, um, started leveraging contacts, you know, doing, doing work with you and, you know, putting my reputation out there. And then it was just like, you know what, when I got those opportunities to say turnkey and event, it was like, yeah, we can make this work. You know, whether we leverage, um, rental houses or, you know, we, at the time, like I did own some things, but I didn't own everything. Yeah. Um, and we able to make it work. Um, and I would much prefer that than basically trying to pass off that, that business to, excuse me, pass off that business to a competitor of ours, of course. Or what would effectively, uh, turn into
Speaker 0 00:09:10 Editor of ours. Got it. So it was basically say yes to everything and then figure it out as you, as you knowing that. But knowing, saying yes, knowing that you could execute on it, not just saying yes to say yes, but knowing that the skills and the contacts and the equipment was available to be able to make that happen.
Speaker 3 00:09:30 Yeah. If I felt confident, if I felt confident that I knew we could make it work and we could have a successful event as possible. Yeah. Uh, then that's where I would say yes. You know, if I, if, if for whatever reason I got the vibe where it was like, you know what, this is a little bit out of our wheelhouse. Um, Hey, we can offer you up to a certain point and then to get you over that hurdle, we can bring in somebody else that would help out with that. Something, whatever it was that we didn't necessarily feel comfortable doing it for sure.
Speaker 0 00:10:03 Awesome. Um, Dave Jensen, the old man on the block, actually here, you were working, you were working with and for your dad, um, for a long time. And then, um, you know what, I don't know if we've ever actually really delved down where the transition was from working, you know, doing all of that work Dallas and all that stuff. We started this conversation if you, weeks ago, which is what kind of led me into where we are now, um, what was that transition like? And then how long had ha were you continuing to be like owner operator doing shows and not versus the now kind of really working your way into handling the business itself versus going out and running any two or running up, you know, uh, uh, a switcher or doing that sort of stuff.
Speaker 4 00:10:52 Um, let's see. Yeah, you're right. I started working for my dad. Um, this has been a really long time ago, uh, since he was already in the industry, you know, I grew up in this, so I was an unpaid, uh, unpaid intern for, I don't know, probably eight or nine years, uh, you know, as a kid, uh, I started as a bench tech because nobody cares if you're eight years old and making XLRs and cleaning the heads of three quarter inch machines or whatever you're doing. Um, so I was kind of his unpaid intern and shout out to my dad, today's actually his birthday. Uh, so, uh, uh, so I started working for him kind of a, you know, a, do you want to recall this cable? Hey, you gotta read terminated. So they pulled the end off. And, uh, so I was bench tech worked into being the system tech, doing warehouse, uh, pre-built type stuff.
Speaker 4 00:11:41 Um, once I was old enough to travel, um, either weekends, evenings, summers, vacation, times, whatever, then I started going out on gigs. So I guess I went on payroll when I was, uh, doing winter and summer break, uh, events. Um, did my first Vegas gig when I was 14. Um, so that transition, uh, and I could say all sorts. It was my first concert to the first concert I ever got to see was hauling notes in the, uh, Las Vegas showroom. So, uh, so, uh, that was fun. Uh, it was really hot. I couldn't go anywhere. Couldn't even walk a casino floors back then. Uh, so you had to do beeline to the elevator and go back to your room, uh, which turned out to maybe be the best idea as an adult too. So working for him, I worked my way from a bench tech through, uh, being as production manager, uh, and at nine 11 business just absolutely crumbled.
Speaker 4 00:12:41 It was almost pandemic ish. Uh, it's kind of weird looking back and seeing this, um, he's scaled back his business. He was about 60, uh, 60 people strong at that point. So he scaled back his business. I stayed on, but I knew that there were going to be some changes. So I started my business. We were really transparent about the whole thing. Um, I wanted to go a TB route. He wanted to go on Aimee route and I said, Hey, that's cool. Let's uh, instead of competing with each other, let's just compliment. So he helped, uh, help me figure out the business, the do's and don'ts of the business, part of the part of everything. Cause there was a production guy who wasn't a business guy. Um, so I started my company. We kind of grew in parallel with each other and then mine just kind of went a different route. So, uh, even though it had a big broadcast and entertainment, um, business for a long time, it's kind of coming back full circle. And now we do a lot of that association stuff and the big corporate corporate theater type events. So, so we've kind of become that hybrid AB broadcast company.
Speaker 0 00:13:44 Yeah. Well, and then that, of course is the, you know, moving from live online, into encompass when you, you know, when you merged with Mark and, you know, was that kind of the bigger transition for you? Because I remember even man, I think we did that job at course field, uh, for, uh, Aramark a number of years ago. And you came in and you were still operating at that point in time. That was I think four years ago. Um, before you guys merged together, um, was that kind of, when you guys brought, you know, audio, video lighting all into one house, was that when you made that transition and said, okay, I have to spend more time working on the business versus working in the business.
Speaker 4 00:14:23 Yes. I think I had made that transition, um, earlier. Um, I've actually had a business consultant of one type or another or several at one time, uh, for the last 15 or so years. So I was really trying to make that transition of being a business owner that could still be an operator. Um, but probably 15 years ago or so, but, uh, the Aramark gig that you're talking about specifically, I still out on a high profile,
Speaker 2 00:14:52 Uh, on the high profile events as an operator if I need to be. So, uh, I still like to sit in the seat sometimes that was a fun gig. That was, I remember hiking up and down those stairs quite a bit. That was a really cool gig. Uh, yeah, that was the first game I ever saw a drone used on live. Like, like as an intro for a show, it was pretty sweet. It was the coolest shot to say we're field all the way into home plate, dude. That was just awesome. Yes, it was very cool. Well,
Speaker 0 00:15:20 All right. We have now there's, I mean, businesses Joe, you have now of course, scaled back. You've gone into the world of, Hey, you know what? I just like being an operator and a designer and that's what I'm going to do. And, uh, I'm sure that, I mean, at least in my knowing you, I think that the itch for some sort of something will come back at some point in time, especially with design. And
Speaker 2 00:15:42 Let's just say, I didn't, I didn't get rid of my company. I I've gone down to a company of one, but I still have the ability to scale back up as necessary. So I can, I can, I can still operate and do what I need to do of course, with, with a lot of people if I need to.
Speaker 0 00:15:59 For sure. Um, so what, I mean, what is the, I guess, what is the next thing for each of you? You know, what, what are you, I mean, Joe, you were going to go out with journey this last year, um, and, and start working with them. And then of course that all fell apart as the train came off the rails last year. Um, kind of what do you see as your next progress progress into, you know, moving forward?
Speaker 2 00:16:25 Well, that's still the plan. Um, I'm still gonna, uh, try and get back into music. Uh, it's been like 20 years since I've lived on a tour bus. Um, so she'd be, uh, yeah, yeah. You know, I I'm like a, I'm like the Forrest Gump of live events, you know, I, I kind of bounce around from career to career. I've been in auto shows. I've been in corporate, I've been in theater, I've been in rock and roll. I've been in dance, I've been in, you know, uh, cruise ships, a theme park. So, so this is just the next step. Right. I, and, and when I write my book, it's going to be awesome. It's right. Never say no is the title
Speaker 0 00:17:07 That's right. Oh, well, I mean, and that's really the only way to build a business. It's the only reason that I've ever had any successes because instead of even considering the idea of, no, it was all right, how do we do this and how are we going to do this? Um, so what has been kind of, what do you see as your next kind of your next progression as we, as things move forward out of the pandemic and all that? Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:17:35 Um, yeah. Uh, I've actually got some dates on the, on the calendar, uh, for, for, uh, the band we're talking about. And, um, they're penciled thus far, nothing, nothing, a hundred percent confirmed, but, uh, it's looking like that's what we're going to do. So, um, I'm going to try and still integrate my corporate schedule with, with that. Um, because I'm the, I'm the second, uh, lighting person on that, you know, I'm not the designer, um, I'm his assistant, so, uh, so we'll just go down that road and then, um, and then, you know, yeah, we take what comes, I kind of blow on the breeze.
Speaker 0 00:18:15 Yes, I I'm with you. And I think that from a, I think that there's going to be a lot of stuff that's going to come fairly quickly here. Um, Josh, what, where are you from a standpoint of like, all right, where do we go next? Um, I know that for me, I've been thinking a lot about growing the company, especially out of this. I mean, normally when you come out of a very, very hard standpoint, the pandemic I see as a, there's going to be a lot of land to grab from a business standpoint, coming out of this, there have been relocations, there have been layoffs, there have been changes in buyers. You know, what, what is your next kind of push as a, as a business owner? What are you looking to do coming out of this? And, and you can't just say the word grow because it's, you know, it's gotta be more, it has to be more I'm looking to grow well, thank you. I appreciate that. Um, yeah,
Speaker 3 00:19:08 I think, I mean, ultimately, you know, I, I want to get back to where we were coming into 2020, because 2020 was going to be like our banner year and then we got taken out at Ernie's. So I definitely want to try and figure out how I can recoup some of that loss business and make 21, probably not 21, but 22 kind of be that banner year for us. Um, and I think a lot of it's going to be leveraging new contacts and just, you know, from networking with people over the past eight months or 18 months, um, making new contacts and just talking to people in different forums and things of that nature. And like just saying, Hey, we're still here. You know, not a whole lot of people can really say that, um, we transitioned and have virtual options. Um, we were actually oddly enough, trying to sell hybrid events before hybrid was hybrid.
Speaker 3 00:20:11 Um, and clients were super resistant to it. Well now they're not because they were forced into it. So we have the capabilities to do that. Um, and so I think having that technology available to us now, and we've had the past year to really drill down on it and, you know, shout out to my business partner for like really driving that one home, figuring out all the technology behind what it was going to take to do some of this stuff that we're doing right now. Yeah. Um, I think is gonna make us a valuable and, uh, you know, kind of in a Loring partner in the tech space to come in and do those hybrid events. So I think the growth is going to come from there. And I think that's how we're going to move forward into the next coming years. Um, cause we've got that flexibility and the agility to, to just really navigate all this stuff as we're moving forward.
Speaker 0 00:21:08 Got it. Well, thanks Andrew, to call out to you buddy. And, uh, you're a rock star. Thanks for making the magic happen, Dave, what's next? What are you guys next looking at? Um, you know, you, your guys, your company is of course larger than all the rest of ours being the big guy in the room. Um, you know, and great pivots out of, uh, you know, into the pandemic and, and the studio is outstanding. I mean, I've had people in there already doing stuff. They love it. You know, you guys did a really good job of moving into that world. Um, what, where do you guys see things moving next from the business standpoint for you guys?
Speaker 4 00:21:47 Um, well, this is our third, uh, pivot. Uh, not that we ever intended to pivot once, but this was our third, so starting business right after nine 11 and we had the housing crash and, and now, uh COVID so, um, um, I think that this was this sucks, man, but I think that the pandemic was actually good for the industry. Uh, we, as an industry, we all ramped up on our technology and our capabilities and our open-mindedness to new, new ways of doing things. Um, you know, we, we just grew five years in ago in a 15 month span as far as I'm concerned. Um, I agree with that. Yeah. Yeah. This was big. Um, I think we're all going to continue taking a bit of this broadcast approach to all of our events. Um, our clients and their attendees are going to have different expectations.
Speaker 4 00:22:42 So even when we go back to live person, we have a lot of live like live in-person events, uh, on the books, even as soon as next month. I think we have the, uh, the majority of the Gaylord book next month. Um, so for an in-person event. Yeah. Um, so I'm looking forward to going back. In-person meeting with people, shaking, hands, doing all that stuff, but there's always going to be this hybrid or the studio component. One of our clients in particular, we used to do their annual sales meeting in Dallas every year. Well, now we do quarterly town halls out of our studio or a hundred percent virtual just using AWS V Mintz systems. Um, they're going to keep doing those quarterly events. Um, but they're going to do the annual sales meeting in Dallas again too. So, so I don't see anybody growing and get back to their 2019 or 2020 numbers. I think we're all we should all expect to exceed that by about 20, 30, 40%, for sure. But like, that should be our expectation whether we get there or not, you know,
Speaker 2 00:23:46 That's up to metrics and lock and fate, whatever. But, uh, but I think we should be planning on, you know, say 130% of where we work. Yeah. Well, we've, we've actually been talking quite a bit about labor and how that's gonna affect, uh, you know, change in our industry and, and all signs point to rates going up, uh, only because we're going to be, uh, down in, in, in people and, and that that's gonna result in all of our, all of our gigs, quantity of gigs going up as well as the rates, just because people are going to be so competitive for us. Um, having, having capable people in the seat is going to be key to, uh, to success of any event and the quantity of events that is even being talked about it over, you know, it overshoots the amount of physical people that we have available. Yeah. Yeah. I've, I've been hearing that.
Speaker 0 00:24:43 Yep. Well, in live nation, they have more shows booked in 20, 22 than they did in 2019, and we've lost probably 30% of the entire touring group. So then that comes into the one, the one side of, from a labor standpoint of this actually could be in a and Dave, I agree with you. I think overall, the pandemic was really good for everyone. It caused every, it, it was that one thing that no one would ever stop and take a step back and look at how we were doing everything and looking at what we were doing and reassess how to actually make it better for the industry as a whole. So now with labor, especially for instance, the redistribution of, you know, how do we help our brother-in-law find other people who may be, you know, it's like the, the basically introducing more people to others so that they can say, Hey, when I'm reaching out, when I need to find somebody, instead of having to grab somebody, you know, from over where they don't necessarily understand our business, but instead there's someone else that's already sitting and available.
Speaker 0 00:25:52 And I I'm trying to describe it. I can see it in my head and I can't fully like get it out of my mouth, um, where basically creating more efficiency in the labor, more people able to work at a more regular pace, you know, because especially in a freelance world, we still have the guys who are, Oh yeah, I worked three weeks in may and then nothing in June. Well, that wasn't necessarily a symptom of them not being capable, but that the right people didn't know they were available when they were there. And then them also not actively pursuing outside of their little circle. And so something to help others basically spread the word about who is available and who is able to work. And, um, I don't necessarily know the right way to do it, but it like a viable way of creating a more sustainable event industry is keeping, you know, keeping more people working without burning them out and then per they they're able to be provided for it is what I'm saying. Makes sense. I I'm, yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:26:58 Like you're talking about like opening the pool up, basically, because, and I think speaking to your point, we, we see, or at least I do, because I kind of run in so many different circles or had run in so many different circles of production working with this company based out of the Northwest or working in this company based out of the Southeast. And everyone has their own little pocket of guys that they always continually work with. And it's like, Oh, well, do you know? So-and-so and so-and-so, it's like, we always do that with everybody because it's kind of like the six degrees of separation with Navy people, but then I'd run into people say, Oh, no, I haven't heard of that guy. I'm like, well, you've been in the industry for like 20 years. Like you should know who these people are. And it's, it's kind of like that. It's like these there's, it's like these siloed areas of labor where they only work with the same four companies over and over again. And they're like, I don't know if that's just a function of like, that's what they want, if it's that there's lack of option or like, to your point, like, it just, there's a, uh, an, a lack of awareness of, you know, these who these individuals are.
Speaker 0 00:27:54 Yeah. Yeah. So a lot of less holding on to stuff, you know, my gig, my stuff might just open in hands and letting like letting it go, you know, what, if you can't do it, you can't do it and, and refer somebody else to it. And ultimately, you know, those kinds of referrals I have found, you know, I referred a friend of mine to, uh, a producer a couple, uh, about a month ago. And, you know, he was incredibly grateful because I can't work with this producer anymore because I've chosen that I'm not gonna, I'm not going to be a technical director very often anymore. And so, because it's just not fair to my clients and my customers who need my business to work for them, uh, if I go and be a technical director somewhere, um, and that was actually, I think the hardest thing, and this kind of leads me into my next question. That was absolutely the hardest thing for me was making that decision and putting my foot down and saying, this is something I'm not going to do anymore is I'm not going to get out there and work because it, it actually hurts everything. I can only give 50% to both sides. I can't give a hundred percent to one of them. So kind of wondering what was the hardest piece of moving from operator to owner, um, that you found was most difficult for you? Cause everyone's different and anyone can go,
Speaker 2 00:29:20 Well, I'm gonna, I'm gonna just go touch back on your, uh, your previous point. Um, like what's the way we, we, uh, introduce like-minded people or, or groups of people that we know separately, but we want to make them known collectively. Uh, and this will show my age. We go to the phone tree system where call, uh, one person and then that person calls two people and then so on and so forth. So Dave, you're not the old guy in the room. Um, uh, but, um, so let's go back. What was your question again? I'm sorry.
Speaker 0 00:29:59 I was just talking about the hardest thing making that transition. So I mean, you, you are really forced into, Hey, we need you to run this business and have all these 30, 40 guys that come and work for this big company over here, but we need you to manage them. What was the hardest thing for you going from, Hey, I like to just show up and push buttons on my console and do my thing into, well now I've got to, now that I've got all of this other infrastructure I've got to deal with.
Speaker 2 00:30:23 Yeah, for me, it was, it was running the business while onsite that, that made it hard. If I was, if I was here locally, um, I could do it cause there was a lot of rehearsal time where it was sit around and wait, you know, waiting for, uh, the deck to be worked on or were rehearsing the script or whatever. And my part I was already done, I was just hanging out, you know, waiting, waiting for go. And, uh, so I was able to build that infrastructure while I was, while I was, so I was, I was double duty testing, you know, tasks master, uh, to, to run my company while I was on site. But then the, the shows where I went out of town, it was virtually impossible. Um, you know, it was like, I would do a 14 hour day on site and then I'd do another four hours, at least at my hotel room, uh, you know, getting payroll done or getting insurance stuff done or getting whatever done. And so it was always a constant battle for my time. Um, and I got really good at just managing that. Um, and, and, uh, being really disciplined, you know, waking up and, and just going rather than like, Oh, maybe I'll do that today. You know, it's like, no, you have to get this done today. Otherwise you're dead. So yeah.
Speaker 3 00:31:46 And I guess I'd say have a similar response to jail where, uh, you know, in the office doing stuff, it, you know, obviously it's easy where we've got warehouse stuff going on. You know, I got guys that we were working that were working in the warehouse for us. So I could be sitting at my computer doing emails, doing whatever needed to get done in the office while I knew we had multiple jobs getting bowled and getting loaded on the trucks and getting out of there, but then yeah, at once on site and having to be behind a audio console and mix a show, or, you know, even if I'm teaching one of our client's shows and stage managing, but then at the same time, I'm trying to advance the next show or the next three shows, you know, it's, it's a challenge. It's a balance of time and, you know, pulling a 12 to 16 hour day, you know, for the client and then going back to the hotel room and busting out another three hours emails, like it's, it's definitely a challenge.
Speaker 3 00:32:34 And even like at home, like I'd get, I leave the office at 6:00 PM and come home and still do three or four more hours of emails and phone calls and stuff. And I know my wife hated that. Um, but, uh, yeah, I mean, it's, it's, I honestly, like, I, I don't mind getting out from behind the desk because I know where my limitations are and I know that with what I'm trying to provide our clients, uh, I'm probably not going to be the best one to, to mix the show. So I don't have a problem bringing somebody else in to mix the show and then let me kind of handle the 30,000 foot view of it all. Yeah, I'd prefer that. So it, wasn't really difficult for me to get out of that kind of get out of my own way if you will. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:33:20 Dave, what about you, man? What was the hardest part or hardest parts plural for doing all that?
Speaker 4 00:33:27 What is the hardest part? So I still, I mean, even before we jumped on, jumped on this, I still went through and QC the video system and the studio for Chu, that's going to happen this afternoon. Uh, so I'm an absolute control freak, a total OCB, and I've recognized that. And, um, I think the biggest, the hardest part has been letting go of that kind of stuff and saying, well, that's not my way. So it was not right. No, that's, that's not always true. It's not my way, but it's different. Um, so letting go of that was a big deal, but, uh, I think putting in a company or building a company culture, I really adopted the CEO role rather than the video engineer role. When I realized that I was affecting the culture of the company and, uh, you know, our forward plan and, and how, how we look at different situations than we have plans. We're not reactionary. Uh, I think once I saw everybody else have that same culture that I had the same expectations, uh, expected outcomes, all of that stuff, then I kind of said, all right, you know what? Now, now I recognize what my role is. So not, not that I don't jump behind the switcher a couple of times a month at least, but, uh, so I still do that, but uh, really developing culture and process made it scalable. So everybody else can have the success that I can. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:34:50 So that all, I mean, ultimately all of this comes down to self-awareness being aware. Um, I was having a conversation with my wife yesterday or two days ago about how just in the last two years, I finally come to the idea that being self-aware is insanely important. Um, where, how did you guys develop that as a, as an owner, as an operator? Um, or maybe, I mean, maybe you've had trouble with it. I know I have PR self-awareness has always been something that I've struggled with. Cause I'm kind of just like, ah, just, you know, shoot first, ask questions later kind of kind of person, instead of saying, how can I do this better? Uh, but I've noticed a huge difference in how I operate and what I can do when I do that, such as getting myself out of a technical director, I had to admit that I can't do both of these as much as I like to think I can. So now I've got to pick and do what I need to do. And that was all just becoming self-aware of where my strengths, where my weaknesses are. Um, you know, how did you develop the self-awareness and then what did you need to admit and say, okay, I've got to change acts, um, because I've now realized it's a problem.
Speaker 2 00:36:02 One of the, what were the things we actually talked about with Tom Stimson was, you know, the, the fact that most business owners are opportunists, not entrepreneurs, um, because we come in with a, Oh, Hey, I can do that better attitude rather than, you know, I'm going to start a thing from the ground up and I'm going to do it the right way. No, you take something that already exists and you make it better with your, your techniques. So when, um, you know, I've always been very self-aware even as a child, I was, I was pretty self-aware. I became a stage manager, uh, in the early days of my career. And it was because of that awareness of everything that's going on seeing the big picture, but seeing all the minutia that needs to be done, you know, handily and very timely because, you know, you're, you're in charge of everything. You're the, you're the center of the spoke. Um, and so, uh, so that self-awareness has always been, I mean, born in me and I think any business owner probably has that to some degree. Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:37:07 Yeah. I would, I would agree. I mean, I, you know, to, to Joe's point, I, you know, I've always kind of been a very introspective person, maybe a little bit too much. Um, and so, you know, I've always kind of questioned myself, like in my actions, like, Oh, you know, why did I do that? Or, you know, what, what could I do better here? Or, uh, and that's just like in life, in general, not even specific to being a business owner or even early on being an audio engineer, um, but specific to the audio engineer point, like kind of what I point to that I made it the earlier or the other question was, you know, I, I just, I realized that, you know, I was only so good and that there are other tech visions out there who are much better at what I do in certain aspects.
Speaker 3 00:37:54 And, you know, um, my whole approach to any production is just want the client to have a great production and have a good event. And so I, what can I do to make sure that that's going to happen and facilitate that? And if that means I need to pull myself out from being the one, because I'm not that great in certain areas. And I need to hire somebody else who has more strengths in other areas than me then. So be it like, I don't take personal offense to that. Like I know there some guys that are so like big headed about, you know, where they fit in the puzzle that it's like, well, no, wait a minute, like take a step back and like, look at what's trying to happen here. And it's like, you know, it's just be more open to, I guess. Yeah. Um, I'm with you and, and being willing to make that change. I think that's the, for me was always the hardest part of the admission of, Hey, I can't do everything all the time. Uh, Dave, you probably feel that way sometimes as the OCD control freak that you tend to be. Um, yep.
Speaker 2 00:38:55 So I agree with you a hundred percent Jordan, and I'm, I'm not self-aware, I don't have that. Self-awareness at all. I'm a highly critical of myself, but I'm not terribly aware, uh, all the time. Um, I'm big on coaching and networking and the more I've gotten into both of those, um, the more I've developed a little bit of self-awareness and figuring out where I actually fit. So, so that's business, coaching, sales, coaching, uh, peer networks, peer mentoring, uh, you and I are part of a group, a peer mentoring group. So, um, those are places that I've gotten a lot of expertise from other people that are just like me, except that are more self-aware like you guys. So, yeah.
Speaker 3 00:39:36 Well, so here's a question I have for you guys. So I hate, so Dave, I hear you talking about, you know, your peer mentoring and coaching and that you've had, um, some sort of, uh, you know, uh, sorry, I can't really think of the word that you used earlier. Um, but you've had, you know, business people involved in, in consulting consulting it. And in Jordan, I know you and I have talked about different things that you've done there in that regard are Joe, I mean, have you done that because like, I've been in this for six years and outside of talking to people like yourselves, you know, I, I haven't really participated in any sort of like peer mentoring or anything like that. And so like, obviously there's a value there. Um, how, like how much of a value like, is it, is it
Speaker 2 00:40:23 It's great? It's, it's, it's totally valuable. Uh, you know, I, I reached out very early, um, to my accountant. I hire an accountant and he kind of laid out all of the things I needed to, to be successful as a business owner because he didn't care what my business was. He just knew how to have the business stove. So I, you know, he referred me to different lawyers. He had, he had several lawyers that he'd worked with. So you refer me to different lawyers. I called all of them. Uh, then he, then I reached out to other business owners about insurance and, you know, all the, all the little things that you don't, you know, payroll, companies, all that stuff. Then once I had those parts and pieces, I knew I could start a business, but I didn't necessarily know how to run, uh, an AAV or lightning or, you know, production business. So then I, I reached out to people within the business to be my mentor. Just somebody I can bounce questions off, like, cause you always need that. Whether it's HR, whether it's insurance, whether it's legal, whether accounting, you always have to have somebody, you can pick up the phone and go I'm in trouble. Please help.
Speaker 3 00:41:39 Yeah, I guess I shouldn't say that. I don't, I mean, I have this guy right, right here in the, in my lower corner box, you know, Jordan has always been, been available to me to like, I pick up the phone, I'm like, Hey man, I got a question for you.
Speaker 2 00:41:49 Then he tells me like five minutes later,
Speaker 3 00:41:54 I was gonna say, what were even like our mutual Jordan and mutual friend, Mark Herring. I mean, I, you know, I'd had a really, yeah. And I had a really, I've had a relationship with Mark for, well over 10, almost 15 years now, I think. Um, and so yeah, you know, I wouldn't say I've gone without any sort of guidance, but I think what I like just kind of noticed, seeing a theme here of y'all probably had a little bit more guidance than I guess I would say I, I probably have
Speaker 0 00:42:24 Well regard. I mean, I, I faked it until I made it up until about a year and a half ago. I mean, I really did. And then I finally, I was on a phone call with, uh, a friend of mine, Keith Elliott. And he said, you know, what's really helped me and completely changed my life as the run, as running a business. He's like, I got a coach who coaches me as a, as a business person, not just a consultant, but an actual coach who will sit down and, and I have a weekly call in fact, right? As soon as we finish this podcast, I have my weekly coaching call and we go through anything and everything that falls into the purview of the business. And we talk about sales and we talk about what to, how to manage situations and all of that sort of stuff.
Speaker 0 00:43:05 And it has been probably the, the greatest factor that kind of pulled me through COVID was having someone on the other end, someone who doesn't even understand our industry, actually, he's not like specifically to Avi, but he's a coach that can point things out and say, listen, dude, that was stupid. And, and somehow you walk away from the call saying, I can take on the world and finding the right coach that can do that as the right way to do it. But the one-on-one, you know, once a week, being able to just get somebody on the phone that you talk through every, I mean, and I say, and I mean everything about, and, and we go through it and it's actually helped me on a personal level as well with my family and my wife and setting up goals and times, and, and helping to be accountable.
Speaker 0 00:43:49 Uh, because the one, the one thing that everything we talk about is centered on us is integrity and having integrity in business. And he always uses this example with me. He says, how many holes can a space suit have? Well, the answer is zero. It can not have a single hole or you die. And that is just like your integrity. Your integrity can not have a hole in it. And, and you have to be the person who's going to do what you say you're going to do. Now that caveat with that is you will never not have a hole somewhere, but if you are actively working to fill those over time, whether it's with someone else to help you or you yourself, making you getting yourself to be better, um, it will change the way you, you run your business and I'm not there yet, but it has been had far and away the best thing I've ever done.
Speaker 2 00:44:42 And I, I would also add to that, you know, I, I recommend having, like Jordan said, uh, somebody that's non-industry, uh, as a mentor, somebody who's just business because you get somebody who understands business, they can help you with all the stuff that you don't understand. Uh, the it's the, it's the, the little minutiae things that, that as a business owner get lost when you're coming out of not having any business acumen before you arrived to that place, um, that, that they're going to help you with those things. Um, and I I'm, luckily my brother-in-law has a very successful business and it's completely in an, in another industry went 100%. So anytime I had an issue, like just a business thing, I'm like, how the heck do I fix that? So I call him, so get, get your team together, get, get a lot of people on your side and you'll find you grow and, and, uh, blossom in such a way that you almost can't keep up with it.
Speaker 0 00:45:47 I know Dave, what about, I mean, you've been working, like you said, with consultants and different groups of people for a really long time. Um, what,
Speaker 2 00:45:56 Well, it sounds like his dad was this consultant from the beginning and then my first mentor, for sure. Yeah, definitely. So my first consultant, I, uh, I joined a group called tab or the alternative or it, and it's kind of like Vistage or any of the other kind of CEO or C level, uh, coaching services, uh, and tap was awesome. Uh, uh, so I moved, I moved on from tab and that was not industry specific weight on my board. We have an attorney, somebody on the giant welding company, uh, like we have all sorts of different caterers, just all sorts of different companies in there. Uh, I moved on from tab because, um, my group was focused on, I think the highest grossing company at the time. It was like $5 million in revenue a year. And so I needed to move on to a group that thought a little bit bigger than that.
Speaker 2 00:46:46 So I moved to Thompson and Tom was awesome. He's industry specific, but he's awesome. He really gets it. And he, I mean, he's got his MBA, he understands operations, he understand sales, he understands management, uh, process, and he thinks a lot of the way I do as well. So, so that was really good. Um, but he'll tell you that sales is like his, um, Achilles heel. So now we work with Carl Becker specifically on sales. And so I've had three paid outside the business coaches in the last 10 or 12 years, uh, that really dive into either finance or operations or process marketing. It is, and really kind of hold me responsible because you know, when you're the CEO, your responsibility really is to your clients and your employees. But if you don't, if you're not a business person, you need a business person to get you there. So anyway, I can't emphasize enough how much those relationships or how much value that comes from loss.
Speaker 0 00:47:49 That's awesome. Yeah. I mean, I couldn't agree more coaching the ability to get better. Uh, we all want it, however, we have to take ownership of it, uh, because it's not going to happen on accident. I think that's probably the biggest thing I've learned in the last five years is that I'm not going to accidentally get better at what I do. I'm going to follow the, you know, when the stress hits, you're going to follow the same habits, the same, uh, the same actions, and you're just going to move in the same direction. And that's been the biggest thing for me. Um, you know, as we're wrapping up today, lots of really great talk. I mean, we didn't even get halfway into all the stuff that I wanted that we wanted to talk about. Um, cause there's so much with owning in the audio visual space. Um, but kind of as we are working our way back into, um, back into events and back into what is going to become, sorry, the dogs are excited about something going on outside there. Um,
Speaker 2 00:48:48 The topic is so great. It is. Yes.
Speaker 0 00:48:50 Thank you, Brooks, we appreciate the encouragement there, buddy. Um, as we, as we move back out of the pandemic and we move into a very concentrated, um, you know, probably 12 months of business starting this summer, um, what are, what is one thing that as people who have gone from operator to owner, and I bet you, there are going to be some people that are now operators right now that will be owners within the next 12 months. Like that's just, it's going to happen. Um, what do you guys think what's one thing that they should do to be ready to either make that transition or push that transition to be better than it could be going forward? Give it a shot, Joe.
Speaker 2 00:49:38 Okay. Uh, I, I always say start, start with the foundation foundation, being your lawyer team, your insurance team, your accounting team, uh, you know, bookkeeper get all those parts and pieces in place. Um, before you, even before you even pull the trigger on, on saying you're a business owner, um, because if you have those in place, you, you, you can jump up. I mean, you can take the leap with 100% confidence that you've got something as your parachute. Um, so that that's that's first and foremost. Um, and if you think you can skirt all of that, you're wrong. So make sure, make sure you set up that team for you, uh,
Speaker 4 00:50:28 Before you take that leap, especially in this environment. That's so wild. I mean, it's, uh, it's the minefield out there and if you don't have the, if you don't have the, that foundation of success built in from the get-go, you're going to get blown up. Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:50:45 Yeah. And I think I'll answer this a different way. I think be prepared to fail and not, not fail entirely, but be prepared to have a failure or failures along the way. And, but not to be afraid of them and use those failures as a learning opportunity. Yeah. Um, you know, we've, I've had quite a few of them over the past six years, seven years. Um, and while some of them were a little like hard pills to swallow, uh, it was definitely, they were great learning experiences to, to help us grow and move forward and be a bigger, better company and provide a better product, uh, for our clients. Um, so like, don't be afraid to fail. Cause I know like that's, that was one of my big things. Like when I, before I even took the jump, I had to be pushed off the ledge because I didn't want to fail. Yeah. But I, that was one of the, that was one of the first things that, that I really needed to take a really hard look at and be like, you know what? This is okay. If I fail, I fail. If I fall flat on my face, I can get back up, dust my legs off and just keep on trucking forward.
Speaker 0 00:51:58 That's very true. Dave, what do you think, buddy?
Speaker 4 00:52:02 Um, let's see. I think one of the biggest things, if you're just getting started is if you're going to be a business, just be in business, uh, do all the right things, put all the insurance in place, get all the payroll stuff in place and always act like business and represent yourself like a business. Even if you're a business of one, uh, do it with integrity and, and show up everyday as a business owner, not as a tech or there's nothing wrong with being in tech. And if you want it to be a tech, then be a tech. If you want to be an owner being honored and you can be a tech owner, but the owner part that's, that's what differentiates the 95% from the 5% I think. So I think just show up, be intentional and do it with integrity.
Speaker 3 00:52:46 Yeah. I would say to piggyback to David's point it's, it's also 100% attitude, you know, I don't care about hard work. I don't, I mean, I care about hard work and I care about the integrity bit, but it's, it really is attitude.
Speaker 0 00:52:59 Yeah. Well, being, being an ownership, being an owner requires ownership and that's not just an equipment or a space or a box or anything else. It requires ownership of everything you do. And, uh, I would say that, um, man, having a coach, having somebody that can help you navigate the waters that are, uh, that are not your strong suits is a huge thing. And, and coaches and mentors are two different things. Um, and I specifically am talking about a coach who can work you through different areas of your life, because as much as we don't want it to be our personal life and our business life are like this, especially in this industry, with the travel and with everything else that we do, we inevitably come to that crossroads of personal or business. And you, you end up having to pick one or the other at some point in time or another.
Speaker 0 00:53:50 And so if you can have someone that can help you navigate those, navigate those challenges, those waters and everything about it, uh, your life is going to be so much better and you're going to be able to sleep at night and say, you know what? Tomorrow is a new fresh day and we're going to go take on the world. So guys, thank you so much for being here today. Really appreciate it. Um, you guys all have ton of respect in my book as you guys grow in the different levels. And, um, I certainly wish you all the best over the next two to three months as, uh, as we see this thing come to an end and then, ah, man, we just go out and kill it. It's going to be a great, it's going to be a great 12 months. So thanks for coming on guys. I really appreciate it. Looking forward to having all of you back on here. And of course, Joe, I'll see you next week. So thanks guys.
Speaker 1 00:54:37 That's good. Awesome guys. Have a great day. Take care.
Speaker 0 00:54:44 Being a business owner is probably one of the toughest things that you will ever do in your life. And honestly it is not for everyone, but if you choose to do it, focus and persistence are going to get you there. Thanks for listening to gig ready today. Let your friends know that we're here to help you become a better professional and a better owner and a better operator every single day. Like subscribe, tell everybody what we're doing so that you can learn as much as possible. Be gig ready and have a great week.
