Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:03 This is the gig ready podcast.
Speaker 0 00:00:20 Welcome back everybody. Jordan Goodfellow here, gig ready podcast. We are excited today talking about labor. It is a hot subject. It's a subject that's going to be, I think the most talked about subject overall, uh, in the next six months is people trying to find people to do jobs. Um, I've already noticed a huge influx of people who are either not available have decided to pursue other ventures or, um, just, you know, need to do something different. So I'm excited about our discussion today, and I think it's going to be a lot of fun. Uh, we've got Henry Schuler from AAV Lancer and Mike Finn, big fin out of Las Vegas, two of my favorite, uh, labor managers, organizers business owners, and then we have the ever-present ever steady Joe Mack of more than light. He ran a giant labor company up in Portland, Oregon for a number of years, working with the likes of big companies that I can't name. And we're really excited to have him here today. So guys, thanks for being here. We really appreciate it. Thanks for jumping in.
Speaker 2 00:01:25 Thanks for having us. Absolutely
Speaker 0 00:01:27 Awesome. Well, Hey Joe, if you want to just jump right in there, man, being owning a labor company, running that for, for a number of years, dealing with specialized labor, um, you know, different specialized positions and stuff. I'd love to kind of get your gauge first and foremost on what you think the next 12 months are going to be like. As people start to come back into the industry, we're starting to see events begin to happen. Um, what are you, what are you thinking?
Speaker 2 00:01:52 Uh, I think everything we talk about in this show is going to be absolutely 100% incorrect in the next six months. Um, uh, so let's, let's just set the baseline there, but, um, I feel like, uh, we're going to be, we're going to be up a Creek without a paddle. Um, and mostly because 30 to 50% of our paddles have, have left the business for greener pastures and, and um, yeah. Uh, jobs that have benefits and have the things that that we've wanted for years, uh, as a labor force. Um, but I, I think there's going to be a lot more, um, regulations in regards to labor when it comes to, you know, safety on site, um, whether we're, um, you know, we're dealing with new positions as COVID monitors or we're dealing with, um, extra time in the, in the box when you're pulling, when you're loading in and loading out a truck, tipping a truck. Um, so I think it's going to get real complicated, real fast. And so I think right now is the time for us to really hash out all those things that we haven't thought about and, and find our way to pivot when we need to and how to make it work because ultimately our clients are going to require us to make it work, um, within the confines of our budget.
Speaker 0 00:03:22 Very true. Um, do you think those budgets are going to expand a little bit to, to accomplish for that or, no?
Speaker 2 00:03:28 Um, I've talked with a couple of my clients and, and I've asked them flat out, what do you expect about labor, um, moving forward and they expect to pay more, huh? They, they understand they have an understanding that, that it's gonna cost more. Um, not necessarily for the actual labor themselves. Like I think the rates will stay the same unless, you know, things get ugly and people, people start, you know, backstabbing to get the gig, um, early on. But I think once we get going, it's gonna come like a tsunami and we're going to be overwhelmed and not have enough humans to, to do the work that we're looking at. So, you know, I, I, uh, I think those clients understand that there's going to be, you know, a longer load in a check-in time, you know, doing, doing testing, doing, um, you know, making sure that all the crew doesn't have a fever, um, all those things that we need to do to make sure that we're safe on site.
Speaker 2 00:04:27 And then the actual, you know, how many people can you have in a box? How far do they have to be a part? You know, there's, we're normally shoulder to shoulder lifting eight, you know, eight guys out of a big case or whatever. Um, and, and I think that's going to complicate the speed at which we can move. Um, but you know, maybe it's more trucks and fewer people, you know, you know, rather than having a whole bunch of people in one truck, maybe it's split out over several trucks. So that's, that's a possibility. Um, but ultimately I think our clients will understand if we educate them that it's going to cost more.
Speaker 0 00:05:06 Yeah, understood. So Henry you're running a, uh, a nationwide labor company, audio, visual labor, specialized labor, uh, you know, stage hands and the like, uh, what are your clients, what have your clients said so far? What are they asking about? What are they expecting to kind of move forward?
Speaker 3 00:05:25 I think, uh, what we've seen is everybody, uh, is very understanding that it's going to take them more time. Uh, it's going to be different. Um,
Speaker 0 00:05:35 So, so
Speaker 3 00:05:36 Everyone's adjusting to that. And in terms of our client base pretty well, they're just excited to be work being again. Uh, and I I'll definitely echo what you said there. I think we're not going to have enough good humans to get this done. We're seeing that already. Uh, we kind of thought that coming out of a pandemic, that we'd be into a situation where everybody's eager, eager to get out there and work, and we're going to fill calls easy, but that's not what we've seen so far. We've seen, it's really difficult to fill calls. A lot of people are, um, counting on unemployment and there's so much uncertainty around what happens next. They're scared of ticket a gig because they don't want to lose their benefits. They don't know that this one, you know, $500 job, you know, it could stop their benefits. So they're, they're scared to take the work, uh, even if they are available. Um, so you know, what we're already seeing is, is a huge shortage in supply. And, uh, we're seeing what looks like it's going to be a big spike in demand. I think there's a ton of pent up demand. That's going to just come like a tsunami at us in Q4, probably Q4 is what I'm anticipating. Yeah. Finn, what do you think of buddy? What, uh, I mean, Vegas, Utah, uh, where's the, where's the action at right now?
Speaker 4 00:06:55 I think Utah's probably my bat. Okay. For things getting opened up soon. Um, I heard some rumors of some festivals happening there in July, and I've been starting to get some calls for larger quantities of people, uh, opening up there. Uh, I'm hearing rumors that Vegas is going to open up soon. Um, I'm curious to see how that goes, right. I mean, I'm reaching out to guys. I've been trying to contact all of my former hands and, and, you know, production technicians and just see who is still available, because like you said, some guys like took a whole new life on, right. They decided they want nine to five. They like being home with the family, you know, all those kinds of things. And, uh, no, I think a lot of people moved in that direction. So it's just really going to be like a rebirth, I think for all of us, I mean, we're going to get in there, we're going to have our core group of people that are in this business because it's their life, it's their passion.
Speaker 4 00:07:50 And, uh, and then we'll just keep recruiting. Like, I'm sure all three of us have done in the past. I mean, that's what you do. You just build your team. Right. And you start educating them and teaching them the ways. And, um, I think that almost might be a good thing. Cause if the landscape looks different than it did in 2019, which I'm sure it is, it might be easier to kind of train people in the new ways of doing things as opposed to trying to teach the old dogs new tricks, right? Like this is the way it is. Now. People have to go through all these hoops and this is the way a normal check-in is. And I think it's a, it's almost like kids going through the TSA that were, you know, traveling after nine 11, it's not new to them. Right. They're going to grow up in this new world of production. And, um, I think that's, you know, that's our approach, man, you know, as this thing starts coming on, like this tsunami, we just keep building and recruiting and doing what we do, you know, dapping over comments, what production is all about?
Speaker 3 00:08:47 Yeah. Uh, a few shows ago, we, we actually talked about this, you know, the mentorship and bringing up the generation,
Speaker 2 00:08:56 Uh, do you think we're going to have a hard time, uh, bringing up that next group, finding them because you know, a whole generation and seeing, uh, an entire industry shut down because of the virus is really gonna make it hard for us to sell this business as a viable income. You know,
Speaker 4 00:09:21 I'm hearing that, but I'm also remembering the excitement of being a kid and work in these festivals and going to the shows and being there. And like, there's, I got a 16 year old son he's, can't wait, you know, for things to go. And I see, and he's young, but I also see the 17 to say 22, 23. Like they want to do that. You know, that's why we all did it. I'm sure. Right. None of us all got in and said, Hey, I want to go build a corporate show. Like we initially got in because we love the music. We love the whole vibe out there. You know, as we grew, we were like, Oh, was corporate shows or this is where it's at. I'd much rather be in, you know, and some sweaty field somewhere. But, uh, Laura of, of being a part of it is, uh, I think it's going to be attractive, you know, for the kids.
Speaker 4 00:10:05 And then it's just weeding out the ones that are just there for the t-shirt to the ones that like, Oh, you actually fit into this world. You know, that this could be your life. I mean, that's gotta be all of us. That was me for sure. Like, Oh, I found something that like this, this is me, you know, this is the world I belong in. And I think those kids are still going to be out there. You know, we just got to keep on a lookout for them and just keep rounding them up and help them out.
Speaker 0 00:10:31 I mean, I got into this, I got into this industry just so I could hear doctors talk about very long drug names. So I mean, that's, that's why I did it. Um,
Speaker 4 00:10:41 Hours
Speaker 2 00:10:42 I got in it for the catering. That's it
Speaker 4 00:10:49 For the long hours. Yeah,
Speaker 0 00:10:51 That's right. That's right. Well, I mean, we all, we all know one thing, I mean, some people were made to do this and some people aren't, I mean, it's just, it's a fact. It is a fact of life. And I personally believe that, you know, I was made to do this, like what we do, having the, the grit that determination the longevity of like, we're on our 18 and we have no choice, but doors are at 6:00 AM tomorrow morning and we've gotta be ready. And there is like, there is no option, um, you know, overcoming obstacles and stuff. And so that of course shines in this particular instance where we're coming over obstacles. And I think that, you know, had this, had the pandemic only gone for four or five months, we'd be, it'd be a completely different world in terms of people coming back and saying, Oh yeah, we can kind of do this.
Speaker 0 00:11:41 And now, I mean, I think, I think you're right, Mike, it's like the people who like, boom, this is what they do where we're seeing that they're going to come back. They're ready to go. But those who they like the nine to five, they like the they're home with the family there. They're doing that. And it's, I mean, it's tempting. I trust for me too. Sometimes I'm like, man, it's kinda nice. Like I'm in the, I'm in my office and I just step out the door and boom, they're the kids and work, you know? Um, but I can't, I can't do a show from my house. It's really hard. Wow. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:12:13 We love that energy, right. I mean, that's the fuel of this thing. Like building those shows and just getting everything and make it happen. I mean, that drives me. That's like momentum for my soul.
Speaker 3 00:12:25 I can't wait to get back out there. I tell you it's this being at a desk. I have to get up several times a day and just like, go work on a computer, do a PR do some kind of project. I just can't be, I was always on the road out working with my crews, meeting people and just, it's just so weird to me to stay home for a year,
Speaker 0 00:12:43 Dude. I know. And it really messed me up. Like my schedule I've realized that like, without the deadlines of the S you know, 7:00 AM doors, 8:00 AM show, you know, 5:30 PM, doors, 7:00 AM or 7:00 PM, first act 8:00 PM. Main act like without that stuff, it like, it removed a whole portion of like measurement in, in my, in like my days, you know? Cause you're like, you have those hard deadlines and now all of a sudden it's like, wait, what do I do? I got the stuff that needs to get done and it doesn't have to be done today, but I have to create those deadlines for myself so that I can actually move that forward. Like push the ball down the road. Um,
Speaker 2 00:13:26 Right. Like you're, that's it like, you know, I could do that tomorrow where in the old days you're like, boom, boom, boom. Yeah,
Speaker 0 00:13:34 Yeah, exactly. If this drawing isn't done, then you know, my gear isn't on the dock on time when it ha you know, when it, when it has to be ready.
Speaker 2 00:13:43 Well, it fractures, it fractures your workflow. Yeah. From the get-go the second, second, you don't have a whole lot of things to get done. Like, like Fen said, you know, uh, maybe I can get that done tomorrow, you know, and then you just keep doing that for like six months and then you realize, ah, it has still, haven't got that done. You know? Um, taxes was a great big thing for me is last year, and this year it was like, ah, I'll get to it tomorrow, but finally got it done. You know? So
Speaker 0 00:14:14 What do we think guys coming back? I mean, w you know, Mike, what are you seeing right now? Or, or Henry as the, um, I guess the, the beginning stages of like the, the arrival period, you know, what are you guys seeing? You get to a gig, you get to a site. What is that? Have you guys seen something common? Have you seen something that, you know, every show, you know, each time we're doing X, Y, Z in this order, what, what have you guys seen so far? Everyone want to jump in?
Speaker 3 00:14:45 Yeah. I mean, I've said, yeah, every client's different. I seen anything consistent, like most of what we've done is really small stuff. So usually it's like, Hey, we, we had to do some testing, actually. Some of the New York stuff we did, all texts had to be, um, had to get an antibiotic test before they came onsite. And that had to happen a couple of days before. And the client organized it all and paid for it all of course. Cause it was their terms. Yeah. Um, but you know, then we've had other shows where they're like, yeah, just show up, just bring a mask and some hand sanitizer and, and that's fine. And we'll keep, we'll keep this, but it was small, so there's plenty of room to keep business. So yeah. So those were easy examples. Yeah. I mean, there, we think that,
Speaker 2 00:15:31 Do we think that, that the, the onus on, on testing and that kind of stuff is always gonna lie with the producer or the production company that's hiring you? Or is that something that, that at some point we have to own ourselves and, and do and provide it for the, for that company?
Speaker 3 00:15:48 I, I think it's, it's really up to the company because, you know, there's not going to be a central mandate on that. And, uh, there are certain guidelines, you know, local guidelines and state guidelines and whatnot. Um, but they're fairly vague and open to interpretation. So, uh, you know, Micah, Vinny, we're all about freelancers. We don't, we don't wanna send employees out or anything. So, uh, it's not really, you know, our place to tell the freelancers exactly what to do, but it is the client has every right to do that, to, to put their own rules in place for their own event. So, uh, we kind of let them determine that and then let the, let the contractors, I mean, they, they run their own business, right. So we kind of let them decide if, if that's up to their standards as well. And if, if they are like, Hey, I don't feel safe. Like I don't want to do this. Uh, they have every right to, to not do that job too. Um, as long as they're voicing those concerns and, you know, making it aware, you know, noted ahead of time and we kind of respect those two parties making, help them make decisions. Yeah.
Speaker 4 00:16:53 What I've seen here up until yesterday, yesterday was the first day where they didn't ask for any testing. But what I've seen over the past few months is, uh, they're asking for testing a few days out for the crew, like within three days. Right. And they show up and they got their negative results. And it's actually, I mean, we've seen some crew come back positive. Right. And they can't go do the show. Like, there you go. I mean, and that's, that's a thing, right. That's a thing. So, uh, that's kinda on the front end, but then a lot of times on these shows, they'll have a people we've done some like larger video shoots outside, things like that. And we'll have a, we'll have a testing onsite where you're going and doing the rapid, uh, 15 minute things. So the guy show up maybe an hour ahead of time.
Speaker 4 00:17:32 Uh, the there's usually a, I don't want line forum where you get a schedule, like, say your call seven o'clock, it'll say show up at six 15, we're having X amount of people getting tested, um, those kinds of things. And that's where I think we need to think about billing back for that hour. Right. I mean, if the guys are showing up, they got to get paid that, um, so that that's been the bulk of what I've seen is the prior to onsite testing. And then if say it's a two week run or something of a 15 minute tests every few days, uh, after the first day. Um, but what I've also seen is a lot of, uh, bigger producers that I work with. They're selling that package to their clients. They're going to the end client and saying, listen, we're bringing in, you know, a team of this many people and the hands.
Speaker 4 00:18:18 And if you want to do it for your clientele as well, all the attendees, they're selling a testing packages so that they're giving that kind of insurance almost to the end client that listen, we're doing everything we can, you know, to, uh, to reduce your liability here, to that, that someone got sick at your show, you know, we're going to go above and beyond, and this is the new line item for it. Right. I mean, that's really what it's come down to is it's a new department, right? Just like rigging and audio and lighting and everything. Now it's this COVID line down there. That's, uh, you know, just trying to keep people comfortable to open things back up again, you know,
Speaker 2 00:18:53 And along those lines, you know, there's, there's the, the health and safety monitor or the COVID monitor as a position on, on the crew. Do you think that's gonna maintain as a, as the norm, uh, moving forward or is that, is that always going to fall to a department head? Is that going to be the TD or how's? How do you, how do you think that?
Speaker 4 00:19:15 Okay, so my gut here and based on everything that we know and, uh, you know, I, I look into this stuff a lot. I think it is going to be, uh, it's going to be an assigned position, right? It's not going to be, Hey, keep an eye on your crew. I think there's going to be just, there's going to be a monitor, right. At least one, just making sure things are going good at the very least in the beginning. Right. For, for a while. That's, I mean, I think it's a given, they ha we have to, right. There has to be somebody that is account that's accountable. You can't be, Hey, you're a lighting crew, chief and a safety officer. Right. Like you need to focus on being a lighting crew chief. Right. But you need somebody to make sure that people are following the procedures.
Speaker 4 00:19:57 Right. Cause we, you know, I mean, it seems like things are getting better, but I've also, I know people that are sick have gotten sick. I'm sure you all know people who have gotten sick. I know people that have passed on, unfortunately, like, you know, it's a thing. Right. And we need to bring it back. I don't think, I think minimizing it is not, is not the right approach. I think we need to have a good plan and go in there and uh, just make sure we implement it. Right. Like that's, it, it needs to be its own department. I guess that answers your question. The best. I think a dedicated department to keeping people safe. Totally agree. Well, we can do our thing. Right. We don't want to, I don't want to do that. Nobody wants to do that. We want to go build productions. That's what we do right now. We just need this other layer in there to make sure that we can do that in a safe environment. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:20:44 Uh, also then
Speaker 3 00:20:52 The multi-pack ass vaccine card. Right. I think, but I think people are saying you can't get vaccinated in contracting and you can give the con well, what point do we, Oh, did we lose Jordan? No. Hello, sorry.
Speaker 0 00:21:32 Internet. My internet connection dropped my apologies.
Speaker 3 00:21:35 Okay. It's always, when I'm talking,
Speaker 0 00:21:38 It actually was Henry. It was Henry. We were talking about, uh, he was actually talking about vaccine. So I'd love to grab that again, Henry and get your, um, kind of you were talking about some people seeing, um, either vaccine requirements or, um, you know, kind of what they're saying when it comes to that.
Speaker 3 00:21:58 Yeah. I th I think it's definitely reasonable
Speaker 3 00:22:12 Ask now. I think it's mostly safe. Um, so that's personal opinion, but, uh, now let's think if there's a way out of this, I think vaccines are the way out. Let's play devil's advocate though here. So you got a guy on your crew who tests negative, but he says, you know, I'm not wearing a mask. Uh, do you send them from home? I would, yeah. Yeah. I, I agree, but I I've been watching a lot of, uh, you know, internet, bullies and whatnot, discussing this topic on site. Um, you know, do, do you yell at them all day, you know, get your mask on, get your mask on and get your mask on, or do you just say, look, if you can't wear your mask, you're going home. I've done that. I literally, like, I gave him love to mornings. I'm like, that's it, dude.
Speaker 3 00:23:00 I I've talked to you twice already. You're gone. Like, it's that space? What we got to do. If you want to keep working, this is what we gotta do. Right. Even in Texas where the, where it's not mandated anymore, it's still up to the venue owner. It's up to the client. It's, you know, if the, if they want to take safety precautions to protect the people around them and their guests and we, we need to adhere to that. Sure. And that's part of the contract is how we look at it. When, when we, when we contract you to go out, you have to keep up the client's safety standards.
Speaker 0 00:23:34 Yeah. So do you think, do you think that they should mandate vaccinations or merely keep it at testing for doing shows?
Speaker 2 00:23:46 That's a tough one.
Speaker 4 00:23:49 Say that one right there. Okay.
Speaker 2 00:23:52 I don't know. I think it could be a hybrid of sorts. You know, I think, I think those that have gotten vaccinated, you know, you have your digital token that you can say, Hey, I'm vaccinated. I'm, I'm clear. Uh, and then the ones who say, I'm not getting vaccinated, but I'll go get your test. Yeah. Then it, then at least you've covered both bases, no matter, no matter what, and you're protecting your clients and, uh, and the attendees involved,
Speaker 4 00:24:16 I think that makes a lot of sense. You're going to get pushed back. Right? I mean, that's going to be a thing that you're saying you have to put this in your body, like you're opening a can of worms there. You know, I think it needs either option. Right. But highly, highly pushed, like, Hey, this is going to help you. Right. This is going to help you get wormed back.
Speaker 0 00:24:35 W what then, as a labor company, do you say to companies who let's say there are companies who mandate their, their full-time employees to get, there are some companies that have said, you know, if you're going to come back into the office, you have to have, uh, you know, you have to be vaccinated. So if they have a policy of that nature, and then they want to translate that to onsite to your labor company and to other stuff, you know, w what do you think about navigating those types of waters? Cause I, I agree with you a hybrid approach, I think, is the best approach. There are some people that just can't excuse me, that just can't get it, like for medical reasons and other things. So, um, you know, how do you navigate that and have the testing and have the other stuff?
Speaker 4 00:25:15 I think that's just another line, another column now. Right? Like I got all my guys, what does he got? He's got his OSHA 30, he's got his forklift, he's got this, he's got his, his vaccination. Right. That's another box that you check now. So when I do a search who we're going to put on this show, Oh, these guys have all been vaccinated. Right. We got, uh, we got, uh, at least this many guys, and then you maybe have to expand out if you can hit the numbers. But that's how I would approach that. Right. I think,
Speaker 2 00:25:42 I think it also comes down to a call to your lawyer, you know, just to protect yourself from, from a regulation saying that you can, or can't do something somebody's going to push back. Somebody's going to try and Sue you to say, Oh, well, they didn't give me this work because, because I wouldn't get a vaccine. So you should have some legal verbiage and whatever they're signing to, to contract a work for you that says, you're either going to do the testing mandated by the, by the event or you're going to get vaccine. And if you don't want one or the other, then you're not going to work for us. You know? And I think that that needs to be, that needs to be set as a legal precedent. Not, not something you just make up on the fly.
Speaker 4 00:26:29 Yeah. I think it should be in the contract. Right. These, we are expecting these people to be one or the other. Right. And your sign up at the end.
Speaker 0 00:26:37 But as long as you have both of those things, then you are eliminating the, the, the not eliminating, but you're decreasing the possibility of discrimination at that point, because ultimately don't, we as an industry, want to minimize discrimination as much as possible, because then if you get into that world of like, Oh, well you must have the vaccine. Well, then that becomes a discriminatory. That becomes a discriminatory, um, statement to essentially in my, in my head.
Speaker 3 00:27:07 Yeah. Does your client have a right to do that though? I don't,
Speaker 0 00:27:10 I don't know. That's, that's where the legal side of things comes in. It's like
Speaker 3 00:27:14 You call your lawyer. That's just, it's way easier to, than show in trying to guess. You know, I think it's a lot easier to never forget that contract as a contract, um, hiring party than it is as an employer as well, uh, as a contract. I mean, I can decide whether or not I want to contract you for any reason. I want to say, well, yeah, these bits came in the same. I went with this one just because random roller that I just like, I don't, I don't have to guarantee anybody anywhere just because they're a contractor and they're in our database. Right. So, uh, you know, this is the same thing. Like we're, we're working on a bunch of training programs to try to, you know, we're, we're moving into a hybrid zoom environment. We want to get everybody is as knowledgeable as we can in that area.
Speaker 3 00:28:03 I'm not, we can't mandate anybody take that. Um, but we can certainly choose people that did take that class over people that didn't, or, or people that we know have that skillset. So you can do the same thing with vaccination and, um, testing as well. If, if you know, they have it, you can pick them first. There's not, that's not discrimination at that point. That's just choosing the contractor that's right. For that particular client. Yeah. Makes sense. So we've, we're looking, we've hired everybody and we now know they've either tested, uh, negatively and then tested positive or they've tested negatively, or they have a vaccine. How, how much extra time do you think clients should be expected to pay in regards to crew overages safety? You know, the load end time, the load-out time to wash up time, um, social distancing. How, how much time do you think that's going to be? I'll I'll, I'll start with a big fan there.
Speaker 4 00:29:06 I mean, I wrote up some plans for this, like way in the beginning of this thing. Like, I, I think you're adding at least an hour in the morning. Right. I mean, it's gotta be, and I think if you're doing these, uh, you know, these heavy wash up periods too, I mean, think about that. Maybe launches, like now isn't an extra half hour, right. For wash up to, to my brain spinning on this question. Cause I'm picturing how many people like have to go wash their hands, like, or get sanitized coming in or coming out. Is it a hundred guys as a 20 guys? You know? Yeah. That's really what it comes down to. And also providing the ability to do that. Okay. If you have a hundred, we'll just say a hundred people, you're going to need five to 10 wash up stations, right. Instead of the normal one or whatever they'd go through. And just one off to lunch. Like, I mean, I think there's going to be a couple hours added into this whole thing a day, three hours. That's a ballpark. I'm thinking an hour on each side maybe and something for margin and breaks.
Speaker 2 00:30:07 Yeah. Well you think about you Henry you think you'd need an hour at the end of the day.
Speaker 4 00:30:16 I mean, I don't know if you'd really need an end of the day time out of there, then you're just leaving now. Yeah. Yeah. I, I I'll clarify that because this was part of the plan to, depending on reset for tomorrow too. Like we had, uh, uh, situations where there would be a crew that would come in and sanitize the whole place right after, after they were done for the day, so that it would be clean and ready for the next morning, you know? And that was, uh, I mean, that was another part of our services. I mean, not just a labor for these shoots, but also for someone to come in and clean everything and just make sure, I mean, literally everything wiped down desks, I mean all that kind of stuff. So that did add in some time on the back end, you know, I don't know if that's going to, that's probably not going to be carried forward, but it definitely was at some point during this pandemic.
Speaker 3 00:31:02 Yeah. I think there's too many variables to pin that down. I mean, it's, as long as it takes, if, if there's two washrooms and a hundred Curio, it's going to take a lot longer and like that's still billable time. Right. Um, so, uh, sure. Yeah. If you want to contract us to, to put those stations together, we can try to do it in a very efficient plan method. If we're relying on the venues systems, then who knows, you know, we can't guarantee that right.
Speaker 2 00:31:31 Well, and I think it's, it's, uh, as a work around to is to stagger crews, you know, you bring, you bring them in, in the order that they need to tip their trucks. And, and so while one's processing, once one's tearing their truck apart and then, and then you just keep that cycle going, and then you, you, you stagger those lunches as well. So that way nobody's on top of each other, you can, you can have a cup of wash stations and you can have, you know, those breaks socially distanced, um, while other people are
Speaker 4 00:32:03 Box lunches, right? Not under the catering stuff like you grab and walk, that kind of thing. We talked about coffee stations where every, like, it's literally like a Starbucks almost for lack of a better word where you're not walking up there yourself and everybody's touching the same stuff. If you have one person, you know, or whatever, it is, a couple of people handing out coffees, doing those kinds of things, just minimize cross-contamination combination.
Speaker 2 00:32:26 But in crew catering is dead. Is it always going to be a box lunch from here on moving out catering?
Speaker 3 00:32:33 We a tough one for a while, I think. Yeah. In general. But I think
Speaker 2 00:32:38 Like in a lot of places you go to like service
Speaker 0 00:32:40 As opposed to so like you're there and you're saying, Hey, you know, I want this, this and this. And then they're serving, I mean, one it's actually going to help them portion control better. Like in terms of like, knowing how much to, how much they're serving, how much they're giving, but to actually will probably create efficiency, you know? Cause how many times you get the guy be like, Oh, I need three scoops of mashed potatoes instead of two. And then, you know, or whatever the case may be. And then, you know, you can, Oh, she's like, boom, mashed potatoes, Oh, gravy, this, that, that, that here. And then it just passes right through. And all of a sudden now you're faster than you were before and you don't have 40 guys standing in line waiting to get something to eat.
Speaker 3 00:33:17 Yeah. True. Could be. Yeah. Pre-packaged almost like, even though it's, they're serving it, it's almost free baggage. Like moving down the line,
Speaker 0 00:33:26 It's still, still fresh, still served right there. They just, you're not the one touch and everything. Someone else says, you know, you put up the, you put up the sneeze guard or whatever it is like you do at, uh, uh, you know, some of the different buffet places and, you know, have at it same with coffee really. I mean, Mike, you mentioned the Starbucks idea. I think it's a great idea, frankly, having somebody who's there that somebody says, Hey, I want a coffee with cream, boom coffee with two cream. Here you go. And in a way you go and then you don't have people circling around and uh, you know, I'll try to figure out how to do all their stuff.
Speaker 3 00:33:57 And with that stagger you were talking about, that's actually a smooth blend, right. I mean, and you're not getting a hundred guys there, you're getting eight. Right. Whatever. Yeah. And I've been an advocate of cruise staggering for years before this, just because you always end up with like, why do, why do we have our Awan, LD and V1 coming in for the truck unload? It's so much more efficient to get that truck unloaded, get the cases in a working line and then have those guys come in and go straight to work. I mean, you're just, you're saving your high dollar yeah. Uh, texts.
Speaker 0 00:34:30 And maybe that's where you're backing up your, you know, maybe your loading call, maybe your pusher calls at 7:00 AM now instead of, you know, instead of eight. So, you know, and you only have eight pushers coming in. So it takes them 30 minutes to check in. They're on the clock at seven 30, they start pushing at seven 30. And then when you have the rest of your crew coming in at eight, they gather 30 minutes. They do their temperature, whatever it is, they get the thumbs up. They boom, they move in now at about eight 30. And by the time you get there, they're gears in the ballroom. And really, they haven't lost that much time. You know? I mean, how much time have they really lost at that point with the stagger and um, you know, so it's just planning. Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:35:07 I mean, maybe it's an opportunity to make it better. Right? Like we said, a rebirth we're reinventing, right. We're coming out of this the way we, when we bought it, like, this is all for all of us. So who always ends up staying late at the end too. It's it's your high end guys. Those are the ones that are up in the trust, fixing something on the lift at the end of the night. Like, okay, I got it. You know, got to get it done for show tomorrow. Oh yeah. But you don't need your, your loaders there for that. So, so it there's a logical progression of coffee just made me realize that
Speaker 2 00:35:38 That because of masks no longer will we have to smell somebody's dog breath because they drank too much crappy coffee. Right. So I am looking forward to the mask where it instantly got like old memories of specific people. So I just might go mask no matter what.
Speaker 0 00:36:04 Well, that's great. I mean, I love the staggering ideas guys. Great. I mean, that's that alone I think is, is worth the price of admission here and saying, Hey, how do we think about this differently? Um, you know, costs will shift costs will change. Yes. Some will increase. Um, now, now what are you guys seeing about actual labor rates? So let's move away from COVID for a minute. And let's look at the actual positions, um, you know, different positions of course, warrant different pricing. Stagehand is not going to pay the same as an <inaudible> or an LDE or all of those sorts of things. But what are you, what are you guys seeing from a, from a, just a pricing standpoint, people wanting or needing to get paid with the more understanding that now they're thinking differently. They're not thinking, well, I know that this is going to be around for 10 years and we're just going to keep working all the way through, but who knows what's going to happen in three years, four years, five years, kind of, what are you guys seeing rates wise? Are you guys seeing a percentage increase? What are, where, where is that at?
Speaker 2 00:37:07 I think, I think we will
Speaker 3 00:37:08 So far I've seen things flat, but I think we will see prices go up. Uh, I think we're, we're going into a low supply, high demand market, quite possibly, um, you know, meet myself being in Denver. I mean, rates have been the same for since the early two thousands. Um, and the prices are through the roof cost of living is through the roof. So, uh, I think the industry's long overdue for, for some, some wage increases. And I think this is the environment that'll lead to that. Uh, the, well, the environment we're about to go into is a prediction at best, but, um, it's, it's getting hard for our guys to live here and I'm seeing the same thing in New York. I'm seeing the same thing. San Francisco is one of the few places that actually has high rates for people, but, you know, the cost of living is getting on that trajectory, like the Bay area. And we're not going to have anybody to hire if they don't have a place to live.
Speaker 0 00:38:08 Yeah. Hmm. Very true. So are you guys going to start a, um, an area based rate adjustments in terms of like different areas or different rates?
Speaker 3 00:38:19 Yeah. I mean, it's, it's too early to tell. I mean, we'll wait and see what the market does, but I th I think it definitely is warranted, uh, in a lot of markets. Um, Austin is going through the roof, uh, in terms of cost of living Portland. And I'm sure you're seeing it there too. I mean, Portland
Speaker 2 00:38:36 Has really blown up. Nope. Um, you'd be surprised actually. Uh, we have pretty low rates here. Um, and, and my company, uh, in the 10 years that we were operating, we actually were able to increase the rates to a, to a more reasonable level, uh, nationally. So, um, so it, it, it never got to where I think it should be, but we're close. We were, we were pretty close at the end of 2019. It's cost of living is high out there too. Right. And it was my understanding. It is increasing. Yeah. But you know, what it's doing is it's just pushing people out further and further away. Um, but you know, a lot of people were already, uh, locked in, you know, they either bought their home and in the early two thousands when, when it was inexpensive or, you know, after the bubble burst and, and, uh, you know, mortgage rates were really low. So, uh, but now, now it's impossible to buy a house here. Uh, right. So
Speaker 4 00:39:37 Getting crazy all over her that about Vegas multiple times this week is people are like, we literally cannot find a house to buy right now. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:39:45 Yup. Supply's incredibly low. And, and that, you know, it's artificially low, um, in terms of just from the rent moratoriums and all that sort of stuff that's gone on. So we'll see what happens when stuff changes. And, and I really hope that we're able to see a, um, you know, a good resurgence. Mike, what are you seeing from a rate standpoint? Are things kind of flat for you too? Or
Speaker 4 00:40:08 This is what I'm, this is where my head is on that. I mean, we always came in high. We always tried to pay our guys the most that we possibly could. That was always our Mo yeah. It created with the crop. Right. We want the good guys. We want to take care of you. We want to pay you the most that the market will possibly bear. Right. That's that's always been the gist of my culture and it's worked right. Keeps the good people. It keeps them coming back. So that's good. I love it. What I have Dean, as things are opening up, it's clients trying to beat us up, um, for lower rates, Hey, there hasn't been a lot of work we're going to, you know, how about you do it for this, that kind of thing. And, uh, I mean, that bothers me and I see it happening now, these people trying to push, but like we were just discussing, I think once the market opens up again and it's a free for all, like we need labor and this is what it is.
Speaker 4 00:40:58 That's gonna, uh, kind of give us a stronger leg to stand on on. Uh, if we did want to increase rates, you know, or people, or who knows, maybe the good technicians are in a bidding war kind of situation, right? Like you want us to do your gig. This guy wants to pay me this, you know? So, so that's, you know, that's the way that might play out in the big picture there. I think I could see that being a definite reality, like definite shortage of good people, the real for the real good guys. Right. So,
Speaker 0 00:41:24 So we need a crew auction site now, is that what we're saying? And you see somebody can bid through Bay. Exactly. They can beat you up for your, you set your weeks, all the weeks that you want to work, and then people can bid you up at your start, like at your starting rate, you know, Oh, well I want him for this week. And then they just bid themselves up.
Speaker 2 00:41:45 I'm going to start at 99 cents and hope for the best 97 cents
Speaker 0 00:41:50 A minute. Right. Is that right?
Speaker 2 00:41:52 Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:41:54 Very interesting. Um, so, all right, well, we've got, I mean, all kinds of great stuff. What about union versus non-union? Um, do you think we're going to see differences between the two types of events? Um, you know, I know that many times, you know, unions of course have a totally different rule structure than a non-union place, non union house. Do you think that we'll be able to adopt a lot of the similar union style protections and rules within the non-union framework? Or do you think that they're still going to be vastly different between the two?
Speaker 2 00:42:28 I think there'll be different. Yeah. There's yeah, me personally, I've always tried to keep it as close as possible. You know, I try to share care the then on union crews, you know, the same way as the union crews make sure that it makes sure a labor is getting treated the way a labor should be treated. Right. That's the way that I looked at this and I always tried to approach it that way. So I don't know for sure. I'm gonna keep doing the same thing. What are your thoughts, Joe? I've actually, I've always tried to keep my rates comparable with the IAA. Um, only because I had contracts with the IIA to be my overflow labor source. Yeah. So, so that way, when I'm, when I'm bidding on a show, I don't have to worry about like quantity of people. I can just say, I know I need 10 people, and I know that those prices that, that I'm getting from the IIA match, what I'm already paying out to my people. So, so I was able to, you know, keep, keep it in mind and never, never worry about, you know, over, just in labor. Um, and, and, and making sure that I'm staying within the confines of the budget for that reason.
Speaker 0 00:43:39 Very cool. Um, I think that's great. I mean, and I agree with you, Mike, I mean, labor is labor is labor and it, and it shouldn't, and it shouldn't differ. Um, how do we address? So social distancing standards guidelines are changing somewhat, you know, CDC makes different assessments and the stuff changes. Sometimes we don't even know about it, but in places where like a S a truck, for instance, you're unloading a truck, um, you know, do we think that things change? I know you guys mentioned earlier more trucks, well, more trucks, you know, definitely carry more costs than say, you know, a couple of extra guys on a crew. Um, how, how do we, do you think there's a way to navigate and find a happy medium between, you know, Oh, we need eight more trucks, so we don't have to stack anything to, um, you know, okay. Yes, we stack XYZ. So, you know, but it'll still come out in a way that we don't have, you know, eight guys clustered around up 1200 pound hunk of crap or whatever you want to call it, to lift it up on top of this thing to pack it tighter, this, that, and the other thing,
Speaker 3 00:44:47 I think that's another case for the vaccination. Like, I mean, I guess the, the, the jury is still out on that too, though. It does vaccination really prevent transmission. Uh, it seems like it will, but I mean, we're going to have to figure out how to work close together again, right. While we're in masks. I mean, they, they change it. What is it? It went from six feet to four feet or three feet or something now.
Speaker 0 00:45:13 And I didn't even, I don't even know I stopped paying. It changed so often and so much.
Speaker 3 00:45:17 Yeah. So just can't imagine our business not working close with the guy beside you. I mean, it's going to be really hard to do. It's a lot easier to vaccinate.
Speaker 2 00:45:31 I think there's opportunities here too, where, you know, maybe rather than a whole bunch of people in the box, you've got one guy with a forklift and one guy, you know, be in the spot or, and you're forklifting stuff to the deck. And then know, then, then that becomes, you know, you're socially distance, the guy in the lift, the forklift and the guy on the ground, you know, are talking to each other and then you only have two in the box getting everything out. And then everybody pushes from there. I think that might be a quick, quick and dirty solution to, to keep it socially distanced and still be efficient in how we're, we're tipping a truck.
Speaker 0 00:46:05 Yeah. Force us to hand bomb less crap, which I would appreciate because gosh, man, fricking put it all on wheels and push, push it and stack it. Um,
Speaker 2 00:46:16 Well, and I th I think that can, that can then translate later on to the client, you know, why do we have this forklift? Well, it sped up your load in, by at least an hour. Yeah. And so, so then, then that, that line item can then be, uh, a standard moving forward rather than something you're fighting for every time.
Speaker 0 00:46:36 Yeah. Well, I would say forklift is something I've never really had to fight for. I mean, from a cost-effective standpoint, you know, your typical, forklift's going to cost you a thousand dollars for a week, give or take, you know, I've, I don't know if I've ever had a client quibble at that, you know, when they'd come back, you really? Okay.
Speaker 4 00:46:54 Yeah. Instead of I'm like, dude, if you have one more forklift, like we are going to be infinitely fat. No, that's not in the budget. Right. You got one, that's like just doing everything. And I'm like, dude, you're shooting, I'm looking at 50 guys standing around because you have one forklift, you know, like we should have just got them out. I mean, it was, it was a no-brainer, but I've definitely, definitely wrestled with that. So I think that would be great. Like, Hey, this is because of social distancing or whatever. We need three forklifts. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:47:22 Especially in the, in the convention center, you know, market where some of those lifts, you know, it's forklifts are really expensive. You're paying for a whole drayage crew for each forklift or whatever. But you know, at the end of the day, if they can get it to you twice as fast, then that cost is, is well worth it a lot of times. Oh yeah.
Speaker 4 00:47:43 Would they say tripping over dollars to pick up dimes, right?
Speaker 2 00:47:46 Yeah. Stepping over dimes to pick up pennies. Yeah, exactly. Okay.
Speaker 0 00:47:50 I mean, I would always err on the side as a technical director, I always err on the side of like, all right, let's spend the money now upfront. Even if I know it's going to seem over budget, but I know that in the end and I can say nine times out of 10, I normally end up below my budget number even after I've theoretically spent that money like in advance and know thinking, Oh man, I'm, you know, whatever, $1,800 over on my labor. And then it always comes back on stuff like that. I mean, lifts, forklifts, anything that does the lifting. Um, I mean it just makes a huge difference. Yeah.
Speaker 4 00:48:26 That's cause you know, right. There's a lot of people that aren't thinking that though, they just see the, the number, the line right line up and I'm like, Oh, well, you know, you need the best production manager guys. If we're seeing things like that, like yes,
Speaker 3 00:48:37 The value that, that unseen value of like work boxes and adapter kits and just all the little tools and, and uh, resources you might need that you probably won't need. Yeah.
Speaker 4 00:48:51 Yeah. We didn't want to send spares, but now we're shipping them in Crestone for you overnight
Speaker 3 00:48:57 On up amounts of money when you get saved. But those, those are best ones. Gosh. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:49:02 Yes. A hundred percent. Well guys, as we wrap up today, um, Henry Mike, I'd love to get your guys' thoughts real quick. What are, you know, the guys that are listening, girls that are listening, those who are crew, you know, they're maybe looking to get, get into the live events world. What are, what are two things that they can do to be ready for their next gig? If they haven't gotten it yet, if they haven't found that next one or where they're going to go, like, what are two things they should be doing right now to be more gig ready? Uh, as we kind of come out of the darkness and into the light,
Speaker 3 00:49:35 If you don't know zoom yet, learn zoom, learn streaming, learn RTMP or anything you can about the two over. Cause it's going to be a part of it for a long time. Yeah. Um, and I would say something you don't think about as much, but customer service training, anything you can do to improve yourself. I always recommend the book, uh, how to win friends and influence people by Dale Carnegie short, easy read. It's a little old fashioned, but it works magic in terms of relationships and how you deal with clients. And really you can be the best tech in the world. And if you can't deal with clients, it doesn't really matter. You could fuck something up on a show and still be pretty good with clients or be really good with clients. And you can see they'll, they'll give you a PACS, right? Yeah. So
Speaker 2 00:50:24 Along those same along those same lines, uh, there's a great
Speaker 4 00:50:28 Book called what color is your parachute? Um, it's all about, you know, marketing yourself. It's, it's mostly geared towards like verbiage you'd use on your resume, but you can take a lot of nuggets just from that on how to market yourself from a customer service standpoint. If you apply those things, um, the, the way you speak about how, what you do and how you do it, elevator pitches, and those kinds of things will make you that much more marketable to labor, uh, labor forces or labor companies, um, moving forward. Very good.
Speaker 0 00:51:03 You got the, you got the final word brother. Talk to me what
Speaker 4 00:51:06 I think, I think, I mean, I'm going to piggyback here on like the whole hybrid thing, right? I mean, that's, that's a good entrance right there to learn about the streaming learn about, I've got an infinite amount of claws with camera guys, right. Over the course of this thing. Like where, I mean, that's literally kept our doors open, right? It's just all of a sudden everything went indoors. So I think learning things like that, you know, to be able to help run these run, these shows and I, and I do think it's going to be hybrid. I think there's going to be, uh, live events going on, but now they're going to have the ability to, uh, reach far more people than they ever have before. If, if, um, if a show sells out in the stadium and you can sell tickets to whatever the online thing is, or even for conventions and things like that, right. Where people can't get in you now can reach the market. So I think the kids should probably start, uh, learning about all the like live streaming and things like that, that are going to be a big part of our future and show up early for your calls. We're going to read the one that's the most right?
Speaker 0 00:52:06 That's right. That's right. Show up early. People be ready. Be early. That's awesome. All right guys. Well, Hey, thanks so much. I appreciate everything. You guys are rock stars as always. And man, thanks. Looking forward to seeing you guys on the road. Can't wait to get back out there and putting out some really cool stuff. I can't wait.
Speaker 4 00:52:24 Oh man. Well you guys,
Speaker 0 00:52:27 You guys know where you should do it afternoon,
Speaker 4 00:52:30 So you guys on-site soon. Cheers. Bye.
Speaker 0 00:52:34 The next 18 months has the potential to be huge as a professional. I believe that right now is the time to get prepared, be ready and be on your game. Educating, listening, learning, and growing. So jump in there, get ready for the stream and the flood that is going to be the next year. I'm excited for what the future holds here at gig. Ready. Our goal is to bring you value. Tell us what we can do better. Tell your friends, let them know that gig ready is the place to learn. Listen, and grow as a professional. And we'll see you next time.
