Speaker 0 00:00:00 Gig ready? Who are we? We are a group of professionals that want to be 100% ready for every single gig as professionals. Our goal is to maximize our time and utilize it properly to ensure that our clients, our customers, and our staff, friends and colleagues get the absolute best from each and every one of us. That's our goal here at gig. Ready? This is also a value for value production. That means when you are here, not only do you listen, but you also can participate. Send us an email to gig
[email protected] with your feedback, your thoughts, your questions, maybe there's something you want to hear. Maybe you want us to do an episode on something that you love and you haven't heard about it. Let me know. Can't wait to tell you more about what we're going to do in the future. As we continue to grow this platform to help us become better professionals. And lastly, I ask you to do one thing for me. Go out and tell your friends. If you got value, if you have found this to be a podcast worth listening to please let your friends know and leave us a review on iTunes. Thanks so much because this is the gig ready podcast.
Speaker 1 00:01:16 <inaudible>
Speaker 0 00:01:30 Hey everybody. Welcome back. We're here. Gig ready podcast. Talking with Chris Leonard, the director, head of audio over at IMS technologies. And we wanted to get into some conversation about post COVID labor and what that's going to look like in the long-term, especially for the next six, eight, 12 months. Um, but before we get started, Chris, how you doing welcome and thanks for being here today.
Speaker 2 00:01:57 Oh, thanks for having me. Yeah. I'm glad to finally talk to you and, um, and talk about this topic for sure.
Speaker 0 00:02:02 Awesome. Um, I'm excited about the topic, but before we get into that, when he give us a little bit of your background, you worked for IMS technologies, you're the director of audio over there. Um, kind of give us a little bit of that. And then also you do something else signal to noise podcast or the co-host over there. Tell us a little bit about those things as well.
Speaker 2 00:02:22 Yeah, for sure. So, yeah, I've been the director of audio at IMS, uh, for about last 10 years. Um, you know, corporate world style work, um, everything from do speakers on a stick, in a ballroom to, you know, 10,000 people in a convention center, you know, kind of runs the gamut we're full scale production. Um, and then prior to that, I spent about six or seven years doing, uh, you know, international or national touring, you know, uh, anything from, you know, theaters, arenas, that type of stuff. Uh, some mega events, uh, with Maryland sounds. Uh, and then even further than I, I basically been gigging since I could walk. I've been doing sound in church and, and friends bands. And it's a, this is the audio is all I do.
Speaker 0 00:03:00 That's awesome, man. I mean, audio is a necessary component of everything that we do if people can't hear what's the point of what they can see. Uh, what about the podcast you're doing signal to noise. Uh, you guys got some Facebook groups and some other stuff going on. What, what are you doing over there?
Speaker 2 00:03:14 Yeah, so we're, so we're part of the pro sound web podcast network. Um, and, uh, yeah, we've, we're currently as a recording we're around episode 66, I think, released. Um, and, um, yeah, it's, you know, it's primarily talking to people in the audio industry, um, from all different sides though. It's it's rock and roll front house monitor guys. It's corporate it's broadcast, it's recording. Um, uh, actually recently we did an episode with an artist dead mouse, you know, so, um, it's just, you know, we try to keep it a little bit mixture of talking very technical. Um, some of it is just, let's just have a conversation about, you know, the why we do what we do, the passion side of things. And then we also are tacos enthusiasts. So we'd love talking about tacos.
Speaker 0 00:03:59 All right. Well, on that note tacos, what's your favorite type and, or kind,
Speaker 2 00:04:04 Oh man. Um, you know, I, well, I'll, I'll dumb it down to taco bell. Not that it's not my favorite, but I'm a sucker for the cheesy greeted crunch. I, I just, I gotta go.
Speaker 0 00:04:17 I, you know, I can, if, if, and when I end up at taco bell, a crunch wrap Supreme is my, is my go-to. Um, however, however, my nickname for taco bell is toxic hell. And so, uh, if that tells you how often I end up there, but I'm a, I'm a huge fan of the taco truck, if you will, or the, um, there's a taco place. It's like a mile and a half down the street from our shop. And, uh, they do like, they've now expanded taco Tuesday into Wednesday. So they basically do dollar tacos Tuesday and Wednesday now. So sometimes it's hard to turn the guys, guys, we went yesterday. We can't go today.
Speaker 2 00:04:59 Yeah, no, the, the, the street truck, uh, taco is definitely by far the best way with the best way to go.
Speaker 0 00:05:04 Awesome. Um, well, I thought we touched the third rail for a few minutes today and talk about labor, um, and what that's going to look like. We're a lot of people, most people have been off for gosh, the past five, six months. Um, we're just now coming back into the world of, um, remote events, virtual events, you know, slow and steady, just slowly starting to see some more interest. Um, lots of people have been out of work. There are a lot of people desperate for work really. I mean, they need it and I get that. Um, but I wanted to talk a little bit about one, I guess, where, where are we right now? Or how do you see everything right now? And then over the next few months, kind of, what do you see possibly happening from what little bit working for a larger AAV company on the East coast? Where do you see it going and moving forward?
Speaker 2 00:06:00 Yeah. So, I mean, if you're in the corporate world, you're no stranger to, you know, what we're calling virtual events. Um, you know, it's something that we were doing pre COVID, just not to this extent. Right. And most of the times, a lot of our virtual events, might've been like a hybrid virtual event on site. So you might be streaming to the web on site or maybe bring one remote caller in from one site. Whereas obviously now it's all remote. Right. And so we've had to build, uh, we have four active studios, like all with like <inaudible> and audio counsels and calm and all that stuff. Right. Um, and, and that's, that's primarily our, our, our work right now. Um, and it's, you know, the unfortunate thing is it doesn't pay obviously near what, you know, live events do. Right. So there's a factor. Um, there, we were starting to see a few what we call hybrid events in that, like, um, this weekend I'm doing a virtual 5k as they're calling it.
Speaker 2 00:06:50 Right. So, uh, they're having maybe a hundred people come out to what would have been like 5,000 people come to this, this 5k, but they're going to stay and try to still raise a sponsorship. So I'm doing a mix. I'm going to be out around people and doing somewhat of a live event we used to do, but we're still streaming it. Right. Um, uh, and then I think as we slowly start to return, we're going to see, you know, these, you know, smaller, smaller meetings on site with, uh, a large, uh, portion of streaming of ingest presenters and outbound presenters, um, stuff like that. So that's, that's where it's gonna start for sure. Um, some of your States that are a little more lenient, you know, uh, like Florida, and again, I'm not making this political, but you know, they're, they're allowing, you're allowing bigger gatherings, a buddy of mine speaking at a thousand person conference, you know, this, this past weekend, you know, so it's, um, it's starting to happen. It's starting to come back very slowly. Um, the biggest thing is we have to do it safely, right. So we don't ruin it for everyone else. Uh, and, uh, so that's, that's, that's the big thing.
Speaker 0 00:07:54 Yeah. Safety is going to be going to be critical. Um, at times it's going to feel, I think it's going to feel a lot, like people are going overboard. Um, but I think at this point it's going to be safe to say, Hey, let's err, on the side of caution, um, than air, you know, than just go Willy nilly on whatever direction, you know, at, at a whim, someone might choose to go cause everybody's risk tolerance and risk factor is different. Um, and so, you know, help to continue to protect those that want to, you know, be a part of what we're doing, but at the same time, can't necessarily, you know, take on the, I don't want to say take the risk, but feel as risky, let's say as someone else might want to. So doing those things, what are some of the new stuff we're carrying with us now, when you're going to an event, um, you know, that you've never cared or didn't even think about carrying before?
Speaker 2 00:08:47 I mean, the obvious is the mask, right? I mean, that's, you know, that, that, that's a, that's a thing. Um, you know, the alcohol wipes and gloves, you know, I have a box full of, uh, disposable gloves in my bag. Now, um, those types of things, you know, having to bring plexiglass dividers either for your back of house, around a video of villages and stuff, or we just did a shoot, we have a soundstage where we can shoot people in our studio and the stage wasn't big enough to be a socially distant. So we had to put up place the glass dividers in between presenters across the stage. Um, that'll probably be a real-world thing. Um, we did, uh, we did, uh, uh, shoot for some of the high holidays at, uh, at, uh, um, synagogue, um, and they needed a plexiglass around each of the lecterns so that they could still do their thing and not have to wear a mask and they can sing and speak and stuff like that.
Speaker 2 00:09:34 So, uh, I think those were some of the obvious, um, things, um, we can't bring this with us, but you're going to need more internet bandwidth on every site that we're on. Um, you know, uh, I know from my experience in the past, getting the, the bandwidth you needed in these hotels was extremely difficult. Um, and, uh, in the past, wouldn't have sustained the amount of bandwidth that we need right now to do these virtual meetings. And it's going to be a thing we're only shows you're going to have four or five incoming presenter callers. You're factoring two to four megs per caller, plus your outbound stream. There's a lot to factor into there. So a lot of five cable.
Speaker 0 00:10:12 Yeah. And that, and that doesn't even include the attendee usage, even if you only have a hundred people that are trying to check their email and do everything else. Um, bandwidth is going to be critical. We'll see where the negotiations come in with that. Um, you know, maybe that would have the potential to mix up the in-house Avi world a little bit, um, create some more opportunity for someone to come in with a good solution that, you know, bonded cellular and, and things of that nature that, you know,
Speaker 2 00:10:42 Yeah, there's definitely some companies who were already offering that pre COVID, you know, to try to combat what the hotels were offering in terms of outrageous, um, internet costs. Uh, so you're going to see that even more now that that's going to be negotiated. And I don't, I don't, I would like to think that people aren't going to accept, um, the rates that hotels were charging in the past for internet because of the necessity for it. Who knows that's maybe wishful thinking, I'm not sure
Speaker 0 00:11:08 You never know. I mean, I'll rent 5,000 rooms and get internet for free. I mean, we will, we'll have to see where that lands. Um, you know, labor is such a tough thing. Everybody takes it so personal, um, because it's their livelihood. It's, you know what I do, what you do. Um, we see that as a very personal thing. And I think that one of the things that's going to benefit everybody walking into this next hiring phase, as people start to bring back freelancers and bring back full-time people, um, is trying to remove the personalness from the hiring process. Um, I ran into a situation a few weeks ago where a friend of mine was upset that I had not called him instead of calling someone else for a project. And, um, as it turns out, I was not aware that my friend was capable of accomplishing this certain part of the project.
Speaker 0 00:12:05 I'd never viewed him as that person. And it turns out I was wrong. Um, but he was upset that I didn't call him. Um, and that got me thinking about this whole subject of talking with and working with people, um, because there's not going to be as many gigs. There's not going to be as many jobs to start off with. And so I just wanted to have just kind of get some feeling of all right, what are some things we can do to prepare ourselves for that whole PR that whole mind game? I mean, that's going to be a mind game. People are going to be, well, they call John, they didn't call me. Um, you know, they must not like me anymore. And, um, you know, I find that hard to believe. I don't really see that as being something that's that is the truth.
Speaker 2 00:12:48 Yeah. So there's a couple of things there. One, I w first thing I'm going to say, I'm gonna call what it is. If someone has that mentality they're insecure. Uh, I'm just, I'm going to say I, you know, uh, that they're, if, if you've been in this business long enough, um, and that's what you're concerned about. I think maybe your relationship might not have been as strong, and I'm not speaking directly to your friend. I'm just saying that just in general needs to be context, right. Uh, you know, I, so on some of this, I'm going to speak in terms of how I book labor, uh, and my relationships, right? So a big part of my job is to keep a network of freelancers all across the country, both locally, my city and across the country. Right. And, um, literally 50% of my job is booking labor.
Speaker 2 00:13:27 So, um, I'm very transparent, um, with anyone I book and tell them that like, look, I will match, um, your skillset with the client, and this is not going to change post COVID. Right. It's if, if you have the right skill set and it's not just, Hey, can you push the right faders on this console? It's Hey, what is the vibe of this person going to be like with this producer or this client that they're going to have to work with? Can they communicate well with them? Can I put this person in front of this high pressure client? Right. Um, and so that, so a marrying of, Hey right. Person for the right job is always going to be my priority. Um, it's, there's no seniority thing. I'm sure I have my go-to guys, but that's typically because our females, uh, because, um, because they fit the skill set, not because using it for 10 years.
Speaker 2 00:14:15 Um, so, you know, and part of that is, and like you said, knowing what people's skill sets. So something that I kind of preached pre COVID was, um, as a freelancer, you need to market yourself, right? Like you, you are a business, right. Um, there are tools like LinkedIn, you know, um, where it is a very viable place to market what it is and what is it you're doing. Um, and stay very visible in front of say, me, someone is hiring labor, you know, um, if I'm actively seeing you, the types of gigs you're doing, um, the skill sets you're doing, you're talking about, um, the next time I'm going to, we'll say Phoenix, I need to find a one like, Oh, I've been seeing, so-and-so doing all this work. I, you know, if I haven't used them before, I'm maybe more inclined to use someone who I've been seeing that work from now, I know post COVID world, that's going to be difficult because gigs haven't been happening.
Speaker 2 00:15:08 So I think the, um, as a freelancer, I think it's going to be on you to start maybe reaching back up to the people who used to work with and just say, Hey, Hey, I'm still here. Um, uh, I'm available. Here's what I've been working on during COVID right. Th th that would be a big thing for me as a, as a labor hire. Uh, Hey, what, what have you done during this time to better yourself, right? Like, uh, what courses have you tried to take? What, um, what shot, what companies have you tried to go to and, and, and learn new skillsets from, you know, cause most AAV companies are willing to bring, you know, any local freelance and open the shop and Hey, you want to mess with this hog today. You wanna mess with this cl five today, by all means on your own dime, come in and work with these things and improve because coming out of this, you're going to be a better asset to me. So absolutely by all means, you know, so, um, the, in summer that that's, that's what I would be looking for is to see coming out of this. What did you do during this time to keep yourself, um, in tune? I know that it's a, it's a difficult ask for some people, uh, don't have access to a lot of things, but it's, you know, that's where we're at.
Speaker 0 00:16:13 Do you think, um, what do you see as like a decrease? Do you think we're going to see a tail off in the market? People, you know, I know a few people that have decided that it's time to look at, look elsewhere, do other things, um, what have you seen so far in terms of people that have decided to either one retire or to just move into a whole new industry?
Speaker 2 00:16:35 Yeah. Um, I definitely know, personally, some people who are currently in a completely different industry, whether it's laying floor or roofing or whatever. Um, and, um, yeah, I think it still remains to be seen. Cause again, you know, yes, we're six months in here. This could be six, eight months a year and a half who knows where we're going. Right. So it's too early to tell whether they they're going to be able to return right now, most people are in survival mode. Right. I know when it first started, we were like, Oh, you know, we all thought this was going to be done in two months. Right. And just like, okay, you know, if you were financially stable coming into this, you should be able to survive two months with no work, roughly, you know, that's okay. Yeah. Well, we've been creeping into that third, fourth month.
Speaker 2 00:17:16 I don't care who you are. Once you start getting four or five months in that that's not a financial thing. You're typically set up for it. Right. And for the people who were that's great, but the majority of people, it's just not the case. Um, so yes, I think you're going to see a shift in people who were available for her, not there now. Um, uh, I don't know. It's going to be interesting to see people who were aspiring to come into this industry. I'm curious to see if they're still gonna aspire to come to this injury industry because of, of, um, of seeing how volatile it is, how quick. Um, but, um, I would like to think that the people who've been in it for a good while and still have a considerable career ahead of them are going to do everything they can to just survive until it comes back, because it's going to come back in some, in some fashion. Yeah. So
Speaker 0 00:18:07 When it comes back, do you think with all of the, um, or let me rephrase that. I see when everything comes back, we're actually going to see an influx of more labor needed on less jobs because of the changes that have been happening over the last six months with, you know, now we're going from an event where, Hey, we're doing this thousand person in-person live event that is in this ballroom, you know, people seated next to each other, really close all that. Now we have to adjust for the number of people. So suddenly that becomes a 300 person event. And then you now have this broadcast I'm I really call it a broadcast. It's no longer a webcast. The webcast is, Hey, take the side screen and put it, you know, and send it to the guy that's out there. Cause there's five people watching back at the home office.
Speaker 2 00:18:56 Could it be a completely separate switch than your in-room switch? It used to be to get away with doing your, you know, air courts here for, uh, is your broadcast, which was, um, you know, your, you know, eat to opera, whatever might've done an auxiliary switch that had a little bit different camera cut than what was in the room. And that was okay. Yeah. That, that level of work is you're going to need to have the same, you know, PIP windows and all those other lower third graphics separate than what you're happening in the room. Cause you might not have imag a room because your room, like you said, it might only be 300 people, but it used to be a thousand. So you might not have, I'm not going to room anymore yet you need a full broadcast switch. Yeah. You're going to talk about a whole other position of a, a lower third opp a, uh, you know, uh, you know, camera's switch or an additional <inaudible> switch, something like that. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:19:40 What about, what about audio? Would that be the place where you really should have another, you know, broadcast? I mean like a truck ascent, you wouldn't need a truck, but you put it in the bag, in the ballroom, in the back and now you've got a guy that's just there to mix the stream, not only, you know, dealing with Mike's audio, everything else.
Speaker 2 00:20:01 Um, I think it's possible, um, audio might be a little bit different and a little more forgiving depending on the complexity of the show. So, um, you know, I, I still think the audio is going to be on, on the front of house guy to kind of, kind of mix that thing. Um, of course on the larger shows, there might be a slight anomaly. Um, it's going to take definitely a, maybe a higher, skilled, a one to pull it off because you're gonna need to start thinking about riding in audience mix, you know, pre or post fade while still doing your live mix in the room and not putting your audience mix and mixing into your room. Right. There's gonna be more mix minus happening, uh, than there ever was before. Uh, so maybe the level of audio engineer might change. I don't know that that's going to manifest into a second position, interesting, or they'll try
Speaker 0 00:20:48 And pawn it off on the eight to, Hey, you can handle this in between Mike changes, right?
Speaker 2 00:20:52 Um, I can see the need maybe for an additional eight to, again, depending on how long we need to be disinfecting and how, um, how separate we need to be with these things. You might need another body to handle these. I think, um, in our calm is gonna be the biggest change in audio. Um, no longer are you gonna be able to get away with just your simple two channel RTS system? You know, you're going to need your helix net, your renals, your free speaks multi-channel or you're gonna need four wire comm because like we're doing the studios now. I mean, you know, we're running, um, you know, a live room in green room in our comp plus production in our comms channels so that you can talk to incoming presenters and get them ready and call them like all those Intercom channels. Aren't something you typically had to happen on your basic level, a V shows your higher insurance course already had helix. Now stuff, I think more basic shows are gonna need even more detailed Intercom. So that would maybe create a position of a true common engineerial show is where, you know, you're, you have an 82, who's making people up and deal with RF, and then you legitimately have a calm person on these types of shows.
Speaker 0 00:21:52 For sure. Um, calm was always that thing, especially for me as a technical director, that always was like the afterthought from, from a lot of the audio companies that I worked with. Um, it's always the last thing they're working on. Um, and it definitely needs to be something that, that comes up the list, you know, for the, for years it seemed to me like they were okay, PA sounds great. That's the thing. In-house like, boom, everybody hearing. And now, um, one of the biggest frustrations for me and many of the producers that I've worked with is just the fact that, well, why does my wireless headset not work? Why do I have this buzz? Why do I have, and, and you know, the audio guys, uh, trying their hardest, but at the same time, if you get to that point where a dedicated comms guy is going to be necessary, I, I agree with you. Um, hopefully we see a lot of the companies start to do that and, and it's not the first thing that gets cut out of the budget. Um, you know, let's cut that extra delay screen cause we don't need it and keep the guy because we need to make sure that that stuff is on point. Especially if we have offsite people, unity, all the other stuff that needs to happen there.
Speaker 2 00:22:57 I think so. Um, you know, maybe it's optimistic that things were going to have these additional people doing these, uh, video switching on site. Uh, it concerns me the amount of people. Uh, and I don't blame the text for this, but the amount of who are say doing their own V mix show or doing their own Wirecast show at home as a one man show taking you on what typically would have been a three-four man studio show. Um, and I get it, they're trying to do to survive, right. Um, but some companies might become accustomed to like, well, Hey, I was able to get one guy to do this whole show. Um, and they might've been able to do it fairly successfully. Um, there's a high risk for failure on a single man show. You start adding lower thirds and cutting multiple pips and bringing in presenters on for your next session and stuff like, you're just, you're setting yourself up for failure because as soon as you're focusing this one incoming presenter, you've missed a lower third, you've missed something else or your stream bit rate needs to get changed because of bandwidth issues, you know?
Speaker 2 00:23:53 So you need multiple to focus on these things. So I see that potentially being a battle. Um, and again, I don't fault. I want to be clear. I'm not faulting people for going out and pursuing being a one man show on one tech on V mix. Uh it's I, my concern is the companies, um, like the corporate companies who are hiring us are going to maybe expect that like, well, if one guy could have done this one, tech could have done this. Why on the show do I have to pay for an additional person to come?
Speaker 0 00:24:19 Yeah, no, it makes perfect sense. Um, expectations and managing those expectations are going to be critical, both for the client and for the crew and managing their expectations of what the job is supposed to look like, what the job's going to be. Um, a while back I removed the word simple from my vocabulary because anytime I would say, Oh, it's a simple show. It's easy. Um, it was anything, but, and, uh, I, I changed to the word straightforward. You know, if I'm doing a two screen show, it's straightforward, it doesn't mean it's going to be easy and it doesn't mean it's going to be simple. Um, and so that, that is going to be critical with all this internet infrastructure and bringing like remote presenters. Um, something that I see happening sooner than later is doing, you know, eight events that are all technically one event, but they're there, they're all over the country, but then they all have to be connected. Um, and the infrastructure and the planning for that is going to be huge. You know, you, you need to do a thousand person event, but you don't want to travel everybody to Orlando. Well, now you can do regional and you do 120 people in a room, but the presenter in Orlando needs to talk to all eight locations. The presenter in Chicago needs to talk to all
Speaker 2 00:25:39 The, the key thing that you're talking about is calm. What I brought up like in order to put together the most crucial thing for all that has come because of comms, not there and none of that's happening.
Speaker 0 00:25:47 Yup. How cool think about how cool is that going to be though? You've got, you've got eight locations and now suddenly you've got four. I mean, 40 people on comm is going to be interesting, but you know, if you have five people suddenly I can talk on calm to the Awan that sitting on the other side of the country that sitting in a ballroom. I mean, really, if you like, think about the technology and you think about the, the, um, I'm trying to think of the right word, but the progress that we've made just in the last six to 12 months to make things like this happen is astounding to me. Um, and it's, it's really cool, but then internet becomes the next
Speaker 2 00:26:31 Mean pre COVID. We were already using things like agent IC, which is, you know, um, it's clear coms, mobile application for getting calmed to your phone or your tablet. Um, but now using it insane amount, we bought more licenses, moral code units to actually accomplish it. And it's going to be definitely more of a thing. And this goes back to again, we're going to have to get outside of a simple two channels comp system, and we're going to have all those sites together. You're going to need, you know, locally, you're going to need multiple comm channels and you're going to, you know, comm sites, you know, comp where reef location. So, um, yeah, it's, it's the other thing I was thinking about too, is, um, you know, the 10 hour minimum thing might have to change. And by that, I mean not less, I mean, or because, um, you know, there's going to need to be more wash up time. Uh, people got to be a little more distant. It's gonna take longer to unload trucks. It's gonna take longer to do activities, uh, because you're going to need to be, you know, S you know, safe about it. So, you know, what w what you might've, could've done in 10 hours might take 12 to 14, um, that I have a feeling people aren't going to account for that upfront and get burnt on it. Um, until people realize a new norm, there are, uh,
Speaker 0 00:27:42 It's a great point. Um, and thinking about what that looks like for the, the longterm implications of events and, and how is that going to affect rates? What is that going to do to, um, you know, something that, that, uh, uh, another technical director and I were entertaining before COVID happened was the idea of raising the rates slightly, but no longer charging, OT up until a higher number of hours. Um, because there's a lot of things that we do, especially as technical directors that, you know, it's like working over lunch. Some, some producers get all freaked out because you bill over lunch, because I really, truly, I took 20 minutes to eat. And then the rest of the time I was dealing with the hotel and dealing with this and that, like, there was never a true, you know, break there. Um, so instead of having to get into all of that stuff, you just bump the rate up a little bit, call it done and say, Hey, you know what, some days we're OT some days we're not, and we both, it ended up almost the same number anyways. Um, do you see like the possibility of asking for, you know, more hours within a specific day rate at that point to accomplish that, or just 10 hours and then OT and, you know, same Zs.
Speaker 2 00:28:54 Yeah. I personally wouldn't change or I wouldn't approach things different of, I'm trying to remember your phrase that I wouldn't, um, I would keep the 10 hour, um, turning into overtime. I would not go past that. Uh, I think, you know, all right, with all of these labor negotiations, it's a, it's a, it could be a slippery slope and it's a very difficult conversation to have. Right. Um, you know, just the simple part of just negotiations, right. Uh, you know, a lot of people will have, there's a couple sides of the coin here, right. Um, production companies be companies have a, obviously lost a lot of money, as well as the freelancers and full-timers right. Um, and in order to be competitive, um, they may be getting more aggressive on how they are charging clients and they might only be, it might go down to only charging clients at an hourly rate based on a five-hour minimum, you know, or they, um, they might not just upfront charge them a flat tower rate.
Speaker 2 00:29:51 Right. And then you're forced to then potentially negotiate with your freelancers and say, Hey, you know, uh, I can offer you a five-hour minimum, you know, uh, and pay hourly past that, and definitely pay OT after 10. Um, and I needed to do it. And, you know, maybe, you know, if it was, you know, 50 an hour before, and now it's 45 an hour, right. There's like this, like give and take, um, that's a very tough thing that conversation to have. Um, it's, I don't think it's a position that any company wants to be in or any freelancer wants to be in. Um, but I think the unfortunate word that we have to keep looking at is it's survival mode, right? Everyone's survival mode companies are in survival mode, freelancers are in survival mode full-timers or part-timers everyone's in survival mode. So I would like to think as an industry, that if we have to negotiate with freelancers now that we can all agree and understand that when the new, when we can return to whatever normal is, um, that I think the, um, I don't want to say fair rates come back.
Speaker 2 00:30:51 Cause I think any good negotiation negotiation should be fair, but I, yeah, I, it's not like, Hey, this is set in stone going forward. I don't think it's, uh, as an industry, we're stepping back on how much we're making. Right. Um, so I don't know it's in, you know, and then you're going to have, you know, like the, the unions are definitely not going to back down and change of rates, right. That that's not going to change. Right. And then that's going to be a stick usually like, well, if I'm a freelancer and the unions don't have to back down the rates, why do I have to back down on my rates? Um, you know, um, but I, you know, it's, there's no easy answer to negotiation on rates hours, all those things. Yeah. I think as long I would like to think, as long as the company production company, who has the best interest in mind of both themselves and the freelancers and the relationship is strong with the network of what the people they're hiring have Frank conversations, um, that we'll be able to get over this. Um, I've had to have a lot of these tough decisions or sorry, uh, discussions. A lot of these decisions are made above me. And I'm just the one who has to have those conversations. And this will be the same for any other company. I, you know, I'm not speaking for, you know, IMS, I'm just talking about in general, um, how, how these things are going
Speaker 0 00:32:04 Well. And the biggest thing I could say is have it upfront, you know, don't assume any part of it, even though it's tough, even though it's our, we, we hate nobody likes to talk about money, but you have to, and you have to come into it upfront. Um, you know, me personally, as a, you know, when I booked labor, I normally come to someone with a number in mind upfront and I'll tell them right off the bat, I'll say, Hey, listen, you're not going to like this, but this is what I have. And then I just present it with them and always try and be reasonable. Um, you know, I don't ever, uh, well, I shouldn't say that ever don't ever, never, never say never. Um, rarely do I ever have to low ball someone, um, on, on a job. I always try to keep people to the best of their ability, because as a freelancer, that's what I would want. I would want people to give me the benefit of the doubt. Um, but I'll always go to someone up for and say, here's what I've got for this much time, for this much and have the conversation up front. Cause the great thing is, is they can say, no, you don't want them saying no when they're on show site. And then they find out that what they were really doing was for XYZ. And then now they're saying no, because then you get yourself into some, some deep trouble.
Speaker 2 00:33:23 Yeah. I mean, in a lot of the honest dialogue that I've been having with freelancers or part-timers or whatever, is that, you know, in this time, like you said, they're, they're going to get other work. It may be getting some, uh, unemployment. And so if they, you know, if I only offer them, say one show this week, uh, you know, that's, uh, a one day call half day call or whatever it is, they're actually going to lose out on their unemployment or they're gonna lose out on the, um, under the table cash gig that they've been able to work out. And so it's actually not going to behoove them to take a negotiated rate or even in a shorter days. And so, um, and what I, when I've been in that situation with conversations, I'm very Frank, I'm like, look, you know, guy, girl, whatever I looked at, I, I understand your position.
Speaker 2 00:34:05 Like this is, this is purely just, uh, that's why this is, I will always have a discussion. It's not a mandate of like, Hey, here's our number. You take it or you leave it. Right. Um, and then, uh, you know, the is like, you know, if I think it's presented as, um, you know, also some people, you know, you can't jeopardize a show. And so no matter what, whether you're technically as a company losing money on that particular freelancer, you need to book them because you need to actually go execute your show properly. Like I know as a, as a company, we're not going to set ourselves up for failure. And so if that means, you know, having to pay more for the right person at the right time, uh, or giving concessions, like, Hey, on this gig, I can promise you X, you know, can you work with me on X, Y, and Z gig? Because, you know, if we do this, I can offer you, you know, three days a week for the next, the next four weeks in the studio. You know, if we can come to come to a compromise here and that's, again, it's that it's a reasonable compromise between both, um, production companies and the freelancers or timers, um, to have a middle ground and to survive
Speaker 0 00:35:09 A hundred percent. Um, survival mode is tough. It's not very fun. I wish that, uh, we didn't have to be in survival mode, but that's where we are. And, um, you know, going forward, not taking it personally is going to be a huge thing for anybody that we work with, including me, someone turns me down and says, no, I won't do it for that much. Like I can't, I shouldn't sit there. Oh, Whoa. You know, and get all grumpy about it. Um, they to do what's best for them,
Speaker 2 00:35:38 Empathy, you know, you know, you need to be able to like, if you're in the world of labor and you don't have empathy as a skillset, you're going to have a problem. Um, and, and so I rely on that heavily on, like, I put myself in the shoes. I've never been a freelancer myself, but I've worked with them long enough to understand where they're coming from. Um, it, um, the other thing is, um, man, I, I need PR typically if I don't try to edit these things, but I just lost my train of thought. Um,
Speaker 0 00:36:07 It's all good, dude. I don't edit anyways. We're just, we just roll with it. Do you want me to sing jeopardy for you?
Speaker 2 00:36:17 Yeah. Um, dammit. I had some that I really wanted to say. Uh, and I definitely lost it. Um,
Speaker 0 00:36:28 Not taking it personal,
Speaker 2 00:36:33 I don't know, uh, post back on track.
Speaker 0 00:36:35 Sorry about that. No, no, you're good, man. Um, it's, it's going to be a, um, it's going to be a C I don't want to say stressful conversation because I think if you approach it the right way, it won't be. Um, but looking at it from both sides, from the labor, from the booking person, um, it, it's just honest dialogue. And remember, I've always remembered this one, adage, you never get what you deserve. You only get what you negotiate and negotiation is just part of the job. It's part of the game. And w w some people love it. And some people hate it, uh, because negotiation feels like con confrontation to that, to, to them. Like, that's the way they perceive negotiation when really negotiation is not confrontation. Negotiation is merely discussing and working out terms. And that's it, you know, I, I'm not upset with you. You're not upset with me. We're just trying to come to an agreement and not to, uh, you know, not to, to ruin the friendship or anything else, but it's just, we both have to do what's best for ourselves and find a place that works for each of us. And that's it.
Speaker 2 00:37:46 Yeah. And so, and the other thing too, I think there's a little bit education involved, right? So the freelancer part-timer might not understand the economics of what the production companies are going through. Right. So, uh, for those who don't know, um, these virtual meetings that we're doing, the studios, the driving concerts, um, just about any style of show, an event that is happening right now is not economically viable, right? You cannot th this industry, um, the income does not sustain on the amount of revenue that comes in on these things. So that's all part of the compromise. So not only have you lost all your regular work, the work that's coming in right now is not, you're not even attempting to play catch up. You're barely covering costs, uh, because that's just what the market bears right now. Um, and, uh, and so that's why, like, you know, the driving stuff is fun and cute, you know, but it's not sustainable, it's, it does not make money.
Speaker 2 00:38:35 Uh, it does not cover the, you know, you can't get enough cars and people in that parking lot, uh, to cover all the production needs, because why, because it takes twice as amount of production needs to cover that size of a parking lot. You know, the led walls are twice as big, you know, uh, all, all of those things that you didn't have to pay for before. So it's, so again, it goes back to that honest dialogue, um, you know, you know, I've, you know, you don't have to tell people what you're charging your clients and say, Hey, here's why and how we negotiated with this client. Can you understand that? That's why we're in these shoes and every person that I've had to have, um, conversations with, um, they they've been understanding because again, it's a dialogue.
Speaker 0 00:39:13 Yeah, no, it is. And we, we've gotta be open and ready for that discussion. And, and just willing to be willing to stand up and say, Hey, raise your hand, say, Hey, this is what I need. And, uh, having that co I have no problem with somebody coming to me and say, Hey, this is what I need, because that helps me better understand them, helps me understand their family and their needs and what they have going on around them, regardless of, you know, all the factors that I don't know. And then sometimes don't even take into consideration on the other side of it, looking at an individual that's a freelancer, um, you know, my company, the overhead and everything else that we have, um, th that's part of the game. And so I want freelancers to understand that that is what we, you know, me paying a, uh, let's say a $500 day rate to someone.
Speaker 0 00:39:59 I might only be billing 600, 600 for that, but really, truly, you know, Oh, well, they're making a hundred dollars a day off me. We'll know. I mean that we're not even breaking even at that point. And so understanding that is part of the game. Um, and so w hopefully, you know, I think that people can change their mind a little bit and say, you know what, let's look at the other side of the table, what are they dealing with as well? And when they walk into that conversation, they can say, okay, I know that this is a production company. I know this is someone else. If they've been in survival mode, like you said, for six months. Um, and, and it leads to desperation and leads to people doing crazy, crazy things. Um, now flipping this on its head real quick, how have you had to deal with anyone yet that lowers their rates so low, just to get work that you have to say, Hey, listen, let's bring this back up a little bit. Like I can actually afford to do more than what you're asking.
Speaker 2 00:40:58 Yeah. Uh, so I haven't had to have that conversation, um, because typically it's not people offering us like, Hey, I'm willing to work at this rate. It's typically I don't, again, I'm speaking for the situation I'm in, it's us saying, Hey, we can offer x-ray on X show. Does that work for you? Uh, and it typically would only go up from there as opposed to down from there cause I'm offering it. So I haven't had that conversation. Um, yeah.
Speaker 0 00:41:22 Yeah. Well then I'll just say this in the, in, in the, I guess the situation where you're, where you say, Oh, no, I have to go down to accent. It's like half of what you to make personal recommendation of mine. Don't do it. Um, you know, because we want you, I want you to be able to take care of your family, to be able to, to know that you can change your habits going forward. Cause six months, I mean, savings depleted, you know, people are selling gear personal, uh, you know, guys that own <inaudible> and things like that, and starting to sell gear because they have to. Um, and so I hope that out of this, we can begin to develop a different mindset around money, um, and, and around, um, I'm not saying that those people made poor decisions to buy that equipment. It's just, they're doing what they have to do to survive.
Speaker 0 00:42:14 Um, but I know a lot of people in our industry that work, I mean, I, you know, I've been backstage with a lot of guys that I know that are making a lot of money as operators and things like that. And they're like, man, if I don't get, you know, if I don't get my check at 30 days, I'm done. Um, and I hope that we can adjust our mindsets going forward. You know, we, we make a pretty good living in this industry. We're very fortunate. We're very blessed. Um, and, and I hope that this continues to operate as a wake-up call to, to freelancers, to operate in a way that can be sustainable longterm, um,
Speaker 2 00:42:51 Financial responsibility, for sure. Exactly.
Speaker 0 00:42:54 Um, and then also operating, uh, you know, forming your own company to protect yourself. If you've been delaying that, you know, a lot of people, a lot of freelancers operate as sole proprietors, um, you know, becoming an LLC, becoming a, an S-corp or a corporation to pay yourself a salary to protect your, to protect yourself and your family. So that if something does happen, you've got a layer of protection in between you and other people or other companies that might be coming, whatever, you know, like, you know, if you're, uh, if you, if you have to declare bankruptcy, maybe you can declare bankruptcy on the company and it doesn't hit you personally, or something like that. Um, all the stuff that, that you put off, because you were so busy that you didn't think you had time to do it instead, make the time to do it so that you're covered, um, in case something else does happen.
Speaker 2 00:43:46 For sure. I wanted to touch back on, um, circling back to the beginning of talking about the relationships, things in someone maybe being frustrated that you didn't call them or whatever. Another conversation around that. I've had people that I mentioned if like, if someone turns down to work, right, because of, Hey, Hey, I'm, I'm getting more paint in houses right now, or I'm doing this, or I don't wanna mess up my unemployment right now. Um, I, I personally, I can't speak for like companies, all the people I've told all of them like, look, you turning down those gig right now does nothing to me in terms of w what I, um, I'm, I'm not going to not come back to you and ask you again, the next time we're going to me, like, I'll ask you again next week. Hey, is this worth it for you?
Speaker 2 00:44:27 Like, I basically told everyone, like you do you write, you have to do what's best for you. I am not going to take it personally, me as a hire. Uh, I'm not gonna think you turned down this gig right now because of whatever commitments, whether it's, you know, um, side gig you've done now. And so you can come back full time, all of those things. So that would be my, my plea to anyone who hires labor to be understanding these positions. And then so not, not holding grudges the other way of what you had mentioned earlier, um, and making sure that again, empathetic of all the situations that are going on right now, um, again, this goes back to like, I heavily believe in a role relationship factor between, you know, my, my self and my freelancers. It's not purely a list of grid of names in a city and hit an X. No, no, no. Like this is, I get to know all my freelancers, it's a personal relationship. Uh, and I think that's also why they would want to, you know, you know, maybe negotiate a little better because they trust me as a human, not just as a company that, that, Hey, we're all again, surviving and doing the best thing possible. I'm doing what's in the best interest for both them and the company at the same time. Not just what's in the best interest for the company.
Speaker 0 00:45:37 That's right. And that, that relationship has always benefited me. Um, working with guys that I know, um, I know that if I need it, I can ask them for extraordinary things because they understand, uh, when we're on show site and I'm asking the video guy to help the lighting guy hang lights, because we're behind, um, or I'm asking the, you know, the lighting guy, Hey, you know, I know that this is a tough one, but I need you to do this rate instead of this, because this is what I have, and this is what I need to do the job. Um, those relationships are what help and make that work. Um, and if, and if it wasn't for the relationships, um, then we, you know, we wouldn't have anything in this industry cause it it's all in who, you know, um, kind of wrapping up today, thinking about, um, you mentioned earlier, I love that idea of selling yourself, marketing yourself.
Speaker 0 00:46:28 Um, what are two things that the individual freelancers could be doing now to start reminding people, Hey, hello, I still exist. I'm still here. Um, what should they be doing to begin to kind of ramp that back up? Because w you know, things are tailing down. We're seeing a long slide downward. So in the next three to four months, we're probably going to start to see some bookings. Some people saying, Hey, January, February, we need to start booking some things here and there March, April, hopefully, may June, and then who were, were taken off again. Uh, what are a couple things people can be doing now?
Speaker 2 00:47:08 Sure. So, uh, I imagine most freelancers in the past pre COVID had some type of availability, email, a daily, be pushing out to whoever they work with. Right. Um, some people choose to do that once a month, every three months, a quarter, something like that. So, you know, obviously right now, I don't need an availability email from you every other week. It's a big one. You know, even when we were busy, I didn't need that. Like, I, I typically tell my freelancers a once a month reminder of, Hey, I'm here, here's my availability. Um, and it's not just, here's my availability before that throw in there. Hey, w you know, Hey, I, I spent my time during this, you know, uh, craziness learning X I'm now Barco certified. And, you know, even though it was not ever got before, I'm, I'm this, or I've done, you know, whatever training, you know, here's how I, here's how I've kept myself occupied, or, Hey, I didn't have time to do that training because I had to, you know, provide for my family.
Speaker 2 00:48:04 But, you know, here's what I've been doing. That's totally acceptable as well. Like, again, back to that personal relationship side of things, right. It's a human element that is going to be there. So that would be one thing. Um, but please don't be obnoxious about it. And that's just not for my sake, it's for anyone who received it. Right. Um, the other thing is, you know, um, I heavily believe in LinkedIn, um, especially in the corporate market, um, it is a very viable place to network and actually get gigs. Uh, so if you're, if you were already using it, you're probably well aware if you're not, you'd get on there. Um, and no, you can't be posting pictures of gigs right now that you're not doing, but you can do the flashback things, or just start making connections, like finding connections with connections and connecting to people.
Speaker 2 00:48:44 Because once we're back to this network, I'll speak for myself. If I go to a city, say, I keep using Phoenix as an example, I can S I can search fee. If you don't know, I can search Phoenix and type in audio engineer. And then all my audio engineer connections that are in Phoenix are all sitting right there. It's a Rolodex of, of people who are there. So your chances of getting hired from me are higher. If I'm connected with you on LinkedIn, or at least is listed as an audio engineer in X city, or I can use an audio is where I'm at, but whatever market you're in audio, video lighting doesn't matter. Um, and, uh, you know, so look, I know it's, and the nice thing about LinkedIn is it's, you know, for the most part, politics are not there. You know, there's, you know, the, the cats and kittens and the Karens and stuff are not only LinkedIn, you know, it is, it is truly focused on the, um, the, the, the, the passion that we have within this industry.
Speaker 2 00:49:36 Right. And so, um, and yeah, that's, so those are the two areas where I would focus, um, and just put, just, don't think, not obnoxious about it. There's a way to bring a human element to these things and create dialogue, jump on zoom Hangouts with your industry, friends and, and, and staying connected ended. That was a thing at the beginning of COVID, everyone's there all these zoom calls and that tailed out because everyone got burnt out about it, but maybe it's time to, you know, every now and then your group of people let's have a happy hour, you know, that, that connection back
Speaker 0 00:50:08 Very nice. I love that. Um, very cool, dude. Well, thank you. Um, I'll do a quick plug here real quick. I've actually started a company, uh, that's a disinfection company now that we focus on events and, um, the, uh, the equipment we're utilizing is a two-fold system between disinfection and then a protectant where we actually spray protectant on all of our road cases and all of our equipment that creates an anti-microbial layer on everything. So it basically turns anything. I spray this stuff onto, into a virus and bacteria killing machine, um, and, uh, I could get into the technology, but it's, it's mind blowing on the microbial. Like, micro-level, it's super cool. Um, but then also understanding the equipment and the gear, and so that you don't get the ha the hotel staff spraying Lysol on the cl five at front of house, uh, in the middle of the night, because they had to disinfect everything, but then having the right gear with UVC and other things, uh, to be able to come in, um, and disinfect all the equipment properly, disinfect the location, and then covering it in the protectant so that we just can minimize human error, um, in the long-term, even though it, the protectant lasts for three months, um, you know, we might be there for a week, but that helps minimize anything that gets missed.
Speaker 0 00:51:26 I mean, it, it, it actually creates a layer and it's super cool when you see the technology, but, um, I just figured I'd throw that out there cause it's, it's, uh, it's awesome. So, but, uh, thanks for taking the time tonight, Chris. I appreciate it. Um, I really enjoyed the conversation and, uh, we'll have to circle back and do another one sometime. And maybe we'll talk about audio.
Speaker 2 00:51:49 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It's a, it's a labor, you know, labor is, it can be a fun conversation with some ways in other ways, as some of the things we crossed or difficult to talk about, but it's, it's a necessary evil, um, and it's something I'm heavily involved in. So it's, um, I'm always happy to talk about it. Awesome.
Speaker 0 00:52:05 Well, thank you very much. I, I appreciate it. Have a great night.
Speaker 2 00:52:11 Thanks
Speaker 0 00:52:11 So much for taking the time to listen today. I know that as a professional each and every one of us want to be better tomorrow than we were today. That's why we created the gig ready podcast. This is a place where professionals can come and look at what they're doing. Look at how they're doing it and get better. Every single day. We are solely value for value. We're not going to take corporate interests. We're not going to take sponsorship money. We want you to get better solely because that's what you want. So please give us some feedback. I want to get better. I want to create better podcasts. I want to create better events, just like you do. So if you have some value, you want to give back ideas, thoughts, questions, even, even the ability to be a little critical at times, I would love to hear from you. Thank you so much. I hope you have a great day. Stay safe out there and stay, get ready. <inaudible>.
