Speaker 0 00:00:00 This is the gig ready podcast.
Speaker 1 00:00:03 <inaudible>
Speaker 0 00:00:17 Hey everybody. This is Jordan Goodfellow here with gig. Ready, welcome again today, we're here with Mark Herring, a good friend of mine. He is the lead technical director and technical producer at 3d technical direction. Located in beautiful Atlanta, Georgia. We wanted to bring him in today because we're going to be talking about technical direction producing and how to create events from the ground up. Mark has been doing this for more than 20 years and he loves what he does. And he's excited to talk about it today. So, Mark, how are you doing today? Good. How are you Jordan? Oh, I'm doing fantastic, sir. Uh, I know that we talked about a list of different questions and things we're going to talk about, but in case it veers off to the left or to the right, just know that that's okay. We're not stuck to a script and we just want to see where it goes. So, um, I wanted to start out first and foremost, just getting your definition of a technical director. What, how do you see what you do and, um, and how does that integrate with a live event in general?
Speaker 2 00:01:22 Um, I would, I kind of see a technical director as, um, you know, someone who's kind of keeping all of the different technical teams together, um, sort of a Colonel if you would. Um, first boots on the ground last boots to leave, um, in charge of all the technical production. So, uh, sound lights, video, scenery, rigging, uh, labor to execute what the executive producers and the creative team wants to accomplish in this ballroom or arena or, uh, exhibit space, wherever outside, wherever that event needs to take place. The technical director is bringing together all of the artists and technicians as well as labor and equipment suppliers to execute that vision, um, and keeping everybody on, on task on budget and, um, adjusting to the, the changing landscapes and challenges that might arise on site.
Speaker 0 00:02:29 Awesome. So you spend about three hours onsite a day, right? That's about what it is when you're doing an event
Speaker 2 00:02:35 Three hours would be, uh, would be great. I'd love to be at the pool and we're doing a show in Hawaii or in Cancun, but usually, uh, even the most exotic locations, we'd never really see much more than a hotel room and the ballroom, but, um, sometimes we get out and see some of the sites.
Speaker 0 00:02:54 That's very true. So with all that stuff going on, uh, let's a little bit about an organization. What do you do, um, to stay organized when you, somebody comes to you and says, Hey, Mark, we want to do this event. We're launching this new tech product, and we want you to handle all the technical direction. What are the first things that you do to begin your organization so that you're more prepared as they ask questions and need quotes and all that sort of stuff?
Speaker 2 00:03:24 That's a good question. Cause because I'm naturally not, uh, organized. So I have to work very hard at staying organized on projects. Um, I know a lot of people are much more organized than me. Uh, if you were to see my desk, you would know I'm not very organized. I, I tend to be right down the middle in terms of creative and, and, uh, organized. So, uh, as you can imagine, my desk is cluttered because I'm more, I tend to love the creative side of things, but, um, when attacking a project for organization, um, what I'll do is a couple things. I will create a folder in my, uh, email system for that specific project. And sometimes some folders inside of that folder for, uh, if there are multiple rooms or if there's, um, another aspect of that production that needs a sub folder. So, um, that'll be the first thing I do and a lot.
Speaker 2 00:04:25 And the way I organize, um, email is I'll have, if an email comes in for that project, it'll stay in my main inbox until I've addressed it. Um, and then I will file it for into that project folder. I also will create a folder in Dropbox. I use Dropbox extensively as an organization tool. So in my Dropbox I'll have a general folder for that event inside of a client folder. And then there'll be some folders inside of there for, uh, a tech texture folder. We call it a texture folder that I'll share with all the department heads. Uh, and sometimes those get shared even farther out beyond the department heads to actual operators. And in the, in that texture folder, there'll be drawings, there'll be schedules, there'll be other renderings. They might be, um, uh, show rundowns and, um, cue sheets and all kinds of different things that the crew needs, um, to actually execute.
Speaker 2 00:05:26 And then in folders that I am not sharing with everybody, I'll have budgets, I'll have internal schedules. I might have fire marshal drawings. I might have correspondence with, um, other people that I want to save and I'll save those in those Dropbox folders so I can access them from any, uh, device or that I might be on at the time, uh, finally to stay organized. I think I use, um, a Wunderlist, um, as a, a tool to help me with to-do lists and projects. And I organize that by project as well, uh, so that I can stay on task and, and make sure that I'm getting my clients and, uh, everybody else that needs things, uh, get those things to them in a timely manner.
Speaker 0 00:06:13 So his wonder list, I assume that's a software program of some sort I'm not familiar with it.
Speaker 2 00:06:18 It is, it's a to do software list that you can, um, uh, you can share with people so you can actually share those, uh, to-do lists with other people inside of your organization. Or, uh, I typically just run those, uh, Wunderlist for myself, uh, to keep me on task and focused on, on, on the, to reduce for a specific project. And you can set deadlines. You can email those to do is you can add notes to that. It's pretty, it's a nice program.
Speaker 0 00:06:45 So it's a simplified project management software essentially, or not. That's giving it too much credit,
Speaker 2 00:06:54 Pretty much credit. It's essentially just a, to do list for program to do. You can check boxes and once you've completed the task,
Speaker 0 00:07:02 I see. Oh, very nice. So are there other, um, what about other documents that you use is your tracking? I assume of course, schedules, budgets, um, you know, things of that nature. Are there other specialized documents that you've had to create that took, you know, years of time to figure out, are you, uh, you know, is it, is each one kind of a cut cookie cutter type of, uh, document series
Speaker 2 00:07:28 Documents that I use on a regular basis? My on-site schedule, um, I've kind of cultivated over years and every time I put one together, I think I can do more to, to refine it and make it better. Um, my budget document, I'm constantly refining making that better. Um, but I'm not there. I don't have any other organization tools that I'm using from a document standpoint. Um, I do have a, uh, pre-site checklist in a word document that I've, you know, curated over many years of different things to look for. Um, met much of that I have in my head. I don't even have to pull that document out when I do a pre-site, but if I send someone like you or one of my other technical directors out on site for a pre-site, I'll send that checklist out to them.
Speaker 0 00:08:20 Got it. Awesome. Something that Mark just mentioned talking about me. Um, Mark actually is the one that got me into this completely and utterly, um, got me hooked on what we're doing from a technical director standpoint many years ago, Mark and I met on a Kia dealers meeting in Las Vegas, I think 2012. Um, I actually was going back through photos of the first job that we did together, uh, with rascal flats and, um, uh, Oh man, I can't even think of the other band name now. Um, they sing that famous song and when the fire earth wind and fire there it is. Yeah. Um, and just the piles of photos and thinking back to the memories of all the, all the fun that was had, uh, in Vegas, I think that was January of 2013. If I remember correctly, maybe 2014. Okay. Lots of fun.
Speaker 0 00:09:17 Um, but yeah, Mar it's all Mark's fault. So the reason that I'm doing this today is Mark's fault and I blame him completely and utterly. Um, so with all of those documents, you're managing them, you're organizing them, you're keeping them, you know, structured, you're making schedules. So you get all the way through, what does a pre-production process look like for you? Uh, you know, we kind of talked about the documents, but really if you start at the beginning, you know, you need what I mean in a perfect world, four months to properly, do you know, do a good size, let's say a 500 person general session event that someone's doing.
Speaker 2 00:09:58 Um, every client, every client, every production company that I work with has a different workflow. Um, you know, ideally we would like to have three to six months of planning window for a 500 to a thousand person general session. Um, but sometimes we're, I've done them with only a few weeks of lead time. So it really depends on the work, you know, the client's culture, the end client's culture and, um, what the, my production client wants to do and their culture. So it's really trying to be flexible enough to work inside of anybody's, um, model and, um, and jump in and be able to do that. But for the most part, we're looking at a four to six month planning cycle on the larger shows up to a year or 18 months. And, um, the beginning of that process starts with, uh, on the best shows, the shows that we're the most proud of.
Speaker 2 00:11:00 And I think the shows that show the most return on investment for the, the end client are the shows where the production company engages the technical director in the creative process, because we can bring a lot of, um, value in that creative process from deciding what the best equipment is to, um, or if an idea in the creative process is going off the rails and we can kind of redirect them. Um, but basically if someone throws out an idea and we as a tech director, understand what the best technology is to tackle that we can bring that to bear early in the budgeting process in the creative process and help them curate a creative approach that is unified technically and within the budget parameters. And, um, the best production companies engage us very early in that process and, um, want our value. They value our input from a creativity standpoint and from a logistics standpoint. So
Speaker 0 00:12:06 Spend a couple dollars now, and then you don't waste hundreds of thousands of dollars later because the CEO wanted to, you know, fly in from the ceiling and they didn't realize that they can't do that in a hotel with 25 feet.
Speaker 2 00:12:21 Right? Exactly. And then on the flip side, you know, I think you're going to get a better product, but companies that don't want to engage the technical folks early, they don't want to spend that money. They think that they can manage that internally and some can some have technical people on staff and they can manage that internally. But I think the end product, the final product isn't as well executed because there wasn't that integration early and that integration and teamwork from the very beginning of the process, I think plays out from the success of the project, the happiness of the end client, the return on investment from the, for the end client, uh, you know, that small investment on the pre-show. I think it makes a big difference,
Speaker 0 00:13:09 A hundred percent. Couldn't agree with you more, um, when you go to a site visit. So some they've just contracted you, Hey, Mark, we want you to do this awesome show. It's going to be great best ever. Uh, you know, it's going to be in Timbuktu, nowhere. Uh, and we want to go out and do this, uh, do this where we put some projection on a massive rock in the middle of the desert. Um, what are, when you go to a site visit, what are the, what things are you looking at? I mean, everything, that's the exact answer that we're looking for, but, um, when you're in a scenario that might be unconventional, you know, most hotels loading dock push to the thing, elevator, where's the ballroom, how do we get in, what are the rules to not break anything? Where's the power, you know, rigging, they fixed points, et cetera. But when we go to somewhere unusual where it's, you know, they want to project, like I said, a rock in the middle of the desert, I think you and I talked about an event similar to that at one point in time or other things, what else are you looking at to, to justify the capability of doing something in a different location or a better example might be, um, the event that you guys just did in Saudi Arabia late last year, um, projecting on the old city in Riyadh.
Speaker 2 00:14:26 Yeah. I mean, I, for the most part, when we're doing a site inspection, it is exactly what you just explained. It is just it's verifying the logistic feasibility that the show that we're intending to do is actually able to be done in that location. If we're going, uh, many times I'm engaged on a site selection process. So we're going out and doing pre sites at locations that haven't been confirmed yet on a show that hasn't been designed yet. So we know from historical precedent, what this client has liked and done in the past. So we're trying to find a venue that would accommodate what they've done in the past, even though we haven't designed the show yet. Um, and that scenario where we're going in, and we're kind of looking at historical precedents of the shows that they've done in the past, what they like, what they don't like.
Speaker 2 00:15:19 And we're trying to verify that the logistics of this venue can support what we've done in the past. Even though we haven't designed to show you got it in the case of the Saudi show. And some of the other shows where we have an idea of what we want to do, we'll work. Those pre sites are basically verifying logistics, looking at where we're going to have challenges or what are they going to be? The more difficult obstacles that we have to overcome at a specific venue. Um, if we're in downtown New York city in Manhattan, you know, a lot of the logistics that we have to overcome our load in load out at a street level where we have to block the street off, or we need police department there to make sure that parking doesn't get filled up right at the loading door. You know, how, where, what times are we going to be able to load in and load out, dealing with union labor, making sure that we're inside of there, um, regulations and rules and not breaking any, um, protocols with union labor.
Speaker 2 00:16:17 So those logistics all the times are best handled on site. So going to a pre-site and actually having that conversation with the dock manager, finding the logistics person for the hotel, that interfaces with the police department, with the union liaison, to make sure that they understand what our logistic challenges are and that they're on board with a plan. A lot of times that's done way more efficiently and quicker going actually out to the venue and hashing that out with those people in person. So, um, and it doesn't even have to be in New York city that could be in Marco Island, Florida, you know, sitting with three people from the hotel and making sure they understand that we need to have access to the beach for the beach party. And we're loading in after 10 o'clock. And there's a noise ordinance at 10 o'clock. So how can they help us facilitate the load in after 10:00 PM? So the police don't shut us down because there's a noise ordinance. Those kinds of challenges are just, you know, a snapshot of the many, many challenges that you might have at a specific venue. And, you know, going for that pre-site will help you navigate those challenges.
Speaker 0 00:17:27 Yeah. You often discover many things at the pre-show that they S that's the gotchas. Oh yeah. By the way. Uh, and then you show up on site and try and navigate that for during show load in significantly more difficult. So you get through the,
Speaker 2 00:17:42 I have one, one client that doesn't like to send us out for pre sites and almost every show we get onsite. There's a challenge that we've, we've actually requested in our venue letter that we send out before the show, they didn't read the venue letter, we get onsite and they're like, Oh, you would have known this. If you came for pre-site inspection. Well, the client doesn't want to spend the money to travel money for us to come out on a pre-site inspection. We try to do our best to send it all of our specifications in writing to the hotel, but we can't force them to read that document. Yeah,
Speaker 0 00:18:17 That's tough. I get it a hundred percent. So you work your way through the process. We do the pre-site run, the budgets schedules, find the crew. Everybody's done all the, all the AAV vendors are selected, all those sorts of things. And then you're flying out. You're headed out to the gig, you're onsite now. Um, what are the three things that you need on every single show bar? None. If they're not there, you're not going to be successful.
Speaker 2 00:18:46 Well, even before I get on site, I would say, um, the, one of the things that a technical director really has to rely on is their lead technician. So from a design standpoint, we're, we're tasked with working with the same designer, or if we're designing the show ourselves to design the show, um, I need to rely on my sound guy, my video guy, my rigger, and my lighting guy to actually fill out and complete the design to the specifications that I've asked them to do and what the client's desires are and verify that what w what I've designed and what the earth and what the suit designer design is actually viable. Um, and in the case of rigging, I'm not going to do a weighted rig plot that I send to the hotel. I'm going to have my lead rigger do that, and make sure that everything that we're doing is safe, verified, verifiable. And we can send that to the hotel with confidence that we can hang the 200 lights from the ceiling without overloading the rigging points. So that's the last step before we get onsite. And then the three things that I would, that I would need on every show, um, uh, jokingly, I need my Nespresso espresso maker. Um, that's one thing that goes in line.
Speaker 0 00:20:08 That's a serious equipment. Come on now. Don't, don't underestimate the need.
Speaker 2 00:20:13 Yeah. But, um, uh, you know, the things that I pull out of my bag the most are my DISTO laser measuring tape. Um, uh, my plans I'll print out. Um, full-size plans to be able to, even though I have it on my computer, it's just something to have that paper, or maybe I'm old school in that just to put, pull out, apply and have people around the table to go, okay, here's where this is going to go. And how come this isn't fitting the way we have it on the plan. Let's make this adjustment here. And actually having that paper in front of us with a scale ruler and a tape measure and a laser tape, and we can actually make those adjustments on site to something that didn't, didn't in our best intentions, the way we wanted it to go in, isn't going to work that way.
Speaker 2 00:20:58 So we have to pivot and make a change to have that piece of paper, you know, on the table that everybody can stand around and we can brainstorm and figure out a way to make that happen is, you know, another thing that I feel like I have to have in my bag. Um, and then, uh, uh, you know, I'll have little bits tools, you know, audio tools, video tools, little things in my kit that I will bring along, uh, depending on the type of, uh, event. Um, if it's, uh, you know, the big Saudi show, I had different things that I brought with me to further life outside in, uh, you know, 80, 90 degree weather. And, uh, for, in Saudi Arabia, if I'm in a ballroom, I'll have some other things that I'll bring with me. So every show I'll have some specific things that are specific to that show, but for the most part, you know, full-size plots the, DISTO some marking tape to Mark out the floor. And, uh, then an espresso maker that's
Speaker 0 00:22:00 Sounds like a good list to me. Um, what, now that you've got all your gear, you've got all your stuff, you've got all your people, you got the right guys, what are you looking for on site? What are, what are you looking for from the people working for you? What are you watching? What are you looking at? What are the key? The word metrics is a very overly used term, but, you know, staying on schedule of course, but what are you looking for? What do you see? And are you trying to see if you were to able to tell someone, this is what I'm looking for? What are those things
Speaker 2 00:22:38 Looking for out of the people I've brought on site or
Speaker 0 00:22:41 Both? I mean, everything, that's there looking at the global project, the stage hands, the people that are new, the guys that have done, you know, this show four times.
Speaker 2 00:22:51 Um, I think the biggest benefit to me when, when I'm bringing on a, um, a strategic partner from a technician standpoint, an operator, a lead person is someone who, um, can think on their feet, uh, that don't, they're not relying on me for every single answer. Um, every, you know, they're not waiting for direction on everything. They understand what has to get done. They've read the schedule. They've, uh, they know what the budget parameters are and they'll execute until they hit a brick wall and they need my assistance. Um, or something's not the way it was on the schedule and they want to figure that out. So, you know, for the most part, I'm looking for people that can play in the sandbox well, without a ton of, um, direction, other than what I've given them already. And I'm there as kind of the, um, the crossing guard, so to speak, just make sure everybody is playing, playing well in the sandbox. Yeah. Makes, makes perfect sense. So you are
Speaker 0 00:24:05 Site, you're working, of course you're a freelancer. So that's what you, you know, you, you live and die by the next gig. Um, what are you, what are you doing? You know, as you go from event to event, to help yourself get better at what you're doing, you know, because ultimately we either you learn and you grow, or, you know, some people say you die, but ultimately we know that you just get less gigs because less people want to work with you at that point.
Speaker 2 00:24:36 Uh, I'm always trying to learn. I, I, uh, I'm always trying to absorb new information and I think I'm bad at, um, documenting that I'll take notes for myself on a specific things, on a specific show that I could do better or something that I want to change for the next time around. Um, but a lot of it is just experience I'll, I'll experience it going, not the way I want it to go. And in my mind, I'll, I'll just make a mental note that I need to do this in slightly different. But, um, that, that is a tough job because I get very much invested in that specific project at that specific time. And, uh, I don't, I don't know if it's just, I'm not wired up this way or the, you know, I just don't want to think about it at the time, but I don't usually take the time to take a step back, take a breath, look at it from a 50,000 foot level and go, here's how I could have done this project better. The next time I'm in the middle of the project, I'm kind of, you know, in the, in the dirt with everybody else making it happen. And, um, I, if I have the wherewithal to think about it, I'll make a note on my phone, you know, for the next time. But most of the time I'm just, we're, you know, it's balls to the wall and, and trying to get the job done right then. And that's really all I'm about
Speaker 0 00:26:06 Then day six comes around and you're like, ah, I just want to go home.
Speaker 2 00:26:12 Actually, I have a lot of appreciation. And, um, and envy, I guess, for the guys that are thinking about the strike as we're loading it in, and I sometimes will chastise them, like, let's just get it loaded in, but they're actually, they're forward-thinking is actually saving us money and time on the load out. They're thinking about the load-out as we're loading it in, I'm thinking about making sure the show goes perfectly as we're loading. You know, I'm not thinking about the load-out and I could get better at that. I know I can, the guys that think about the load-out as they're loading the show in are helping me. And that's I like having those guys on site, uh, you know, like a good friend, Chris prosper, uh, a master electrician that we work with a lot. He's constantly thinking about the load-out, even as we're tipping the trucks to come in. I appreciate that about Chris. That's why I want Chris on my job sites, because I know that the lighting's one going to go in super quick and efficiently, and it's also going to come out just as quick and efficiently that frees me up to think about the bigger picture of the show. Not necessarily the load-out
Speaker 0 00:27:20 Agreed a hundred percent, those guys, guys like Chris and other people are certainly worth their weight in gold when it comes to getting stuff done. Um, and, and I've found that I learned a lot from them when they he'll come to me and say, Hey, by the way, did you notice X? And I'm like, Oh, that, that whole batch of cables running across that doorway right there probably isn't gonna do us so well on the load-out when we come back and then we're able to pivot and adjust. And certainly they work very hard to make sure that we, uh, we look as good as possible. So thanks guys. We appreciate it. Um, as a freelancer, both technical director, and just as a freelancer in general, what do you do to find work? People say, you know, cause the majority of our industry is freelancers people that are on their own, they're doing their own, they're doing their own thing. They're not staff members. How are you networking, finding work? Uh, you know, you know, courting people saying, Hey, I can do this and do it. Well,
Speaker 2 00:28:24 It's actually a very tricky thing. Uh, I've never cracked the code on it. Um, you know, I've sent out dozens and dozens of emails to different production companies and occasionally I'll get a hit from one of those. A lot of how I get work is word of mouth, uh, or producers that moved from one production company to the next. Um, the great thing about this industry and the great thing for as a TD is that, uh, people are in this industry are, are unbelievably loyal because if you're good at what you do, people don't want to change. There's a little bit of forgiveness. You know, they, we say that, you know, the show has to be perfect and we can't screw anything up. And for the most part, that's true. But if you're really good at what you do, there is a little bit of forgiveness from your production company clients, because they know you're a proven resource and they don't want to have a learning curve with a new person.
Speaker 2 00:29:23 So, um, that's also a challenge. So, you know, with a lot of my production company clients, they want me on site. If I can't be onsite, there's only a handful of people that they want to replace me and trying to cultivate that new talent like yourself and some of the other guys that we use so that my clients are comfortable with me, replacing myself with somebody else, if I'm not available and you're not available in, uh, you know, the few other technical directors that work with me are not available and they go with somebody new, there's a risk that I'm going to lose that client, not from anything that I've done, just because they don't want to have to reteach somebody. So if they're going to invest the time and teaching someone new, I might lose that work altogether. Uh, and when I moved to Georgia from Chicago, I saw that with some of my clients, some of my clients wanted me in the office for those creative meetings.
Speaker 2 00:30:19 And when I couldn't be in the office for the creative meetings, they hired somebody else. And that I lost that work. Not because they weren't happy with me just because I wasn't available to come in. So I called around to a bunch of new contacts and a few of those hit, some of those have turned into lifelong business partners with me, but some, you know, were just hit or miss occasional event here or there it's very difficult. Um, not to crack. I'm not sure what the, how to, you know, get in there because I think there's, there's a lot of fear and trepidation about bringing in a new resource that you've never tested before. It doesn't matter what their portfolio says. They don't know your company. They don't know how you work. You know? So it's a tough one.
Speaker 0 00:31:07 Yes, very much so. Even harder in the gear business, I will say. Um, that's an, that's another thing to go over some other day, but, uh, what about the jobs you've done? What's the, what's the easiest job you've ever, I mean, ever done easiest one that you can think of.
Speaker 2 00:31:30 Uh, maybe we don't want to tell anybody it's easy, no easiest job. Um, I used to do some, uh, press events, um, for auto show and, uh, the producer at the time, um, liked to do she liked, she was very good at, um, uh, at Adobe Acrobat and, and, uh, Photoshop and illustrator. So I would do an initial drawing and unbeknownst to me, she would take that PDF into Adobe illustrator and move stuff around and basically redesign the show. I would do a schedule and then I'd come onsite in the, uh, in the drawing was different, still my drawing, but everything had moved around because she had done it in illustrator. She had ordered all the labor and I literally would just sit backstage and work on the next show. Um, finally I told her, like, you gotta stop spending. I said, I don't want you to spend your money on me just because you want the onsite. You're doing everything anyway. So we might as well just hire someone cheaper than me, um, as you're, you know, fireman insurance policy, because I don't want you to waste your money saying she and she agreed. And she, so that was probably the easiest show is that I would have very little to do front end and then she would take over and then site, I was just standing around, um,
Speaker 0 00:32:57 Wait that I like it when other people do my job for me. It's it can be, yeah.
Speaker 2 00:33:01 I felt guilty about that. I told her to find somebody else. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:33:05 Well, but then it's also a no, it's also, I mean, annoying, honestly, when you get site and then people are asking you questions about, well, there's a seating section over here. And then you're like, what are you talking about? And then the chair guy pulls out a drawing that has a seating section that a CD lad I've never seen before. Um, when it was, when it was my job to be responsible for the CV layout. So what about the opposite side? The toughest or the most challenging whether mentally, you know, I mean, we do these elaborate setups, huge arena shows, whatever, but like just overall, like you walked away from it saying, I don't know if I ever want to do that one again.
Speaker 2 00:33:49 Uh, I actually have a lot of, a lot of those. I think people hire me because I'm good at doing those impossible shows. So I've had a couple, I've had a few of those. Um, the, uh, the launch meeting for, uh, Abbot Humira, um, was in San Francisco. And, um, that was a huge, huge show. We had a, uh, an, you know, uh, uh, flying by Foy rig over the audience rake seating. You know, we literally had 36 hours to load it in with a full local 16 union crew. Um, so we had to work essentially 24, 36 hours straight without stopping and, um, to get it all in on time and nothing could go wrong. And of course, certain things did go wrong. Um, and, uh, well we were able to make it happen. Um, but it was, uh, that was a stressful one. Um, the
Speaker 0 00:34:56 Sleep for 54 hours or whatever it was to make that one happen,
Speaker 2 00:35:01 I would take naps. We actually, one of the things I did for this job specifically, it was actually create a, in some adjoining breakout rooms set up some cots. So, so some of the leap crew that couldn't leave could go take, you know, 30 minute power naps. And then in another adjoining room, we had a massage therapist with chair massages. So, uh, only the leap crew could go in there, 15 minute chair massage. Um, that was pretty, pretty nice. So that was a, that was a tough one. And like some of the challenges were, um, you know, dealing at one point I had 115 local 16, uh, hands on site. And, um, you know, one of the guys in the audience riser crew was like a cancer on the whole show is just complaining and complaining, complaining. So I had to release him and it became a big issue with the union because he had the most seniority in the room. So nobody wanted him to fire him because he was the most senior. And it ended up like the president of the union came down to try to convince me not to fire him. And it was, uh, so that was, that was an issue. And we had some issues.
Speaker 0 00:36:14 Was it an attitude thing? Was it
Speaker 2 00:36:16 Just, he didn't, he was the most senior, also the oldest on the crew. And he was put on the, on the audience riser crew. So it was very, very strenuous, hard labor, you know, setting up these audience risers are not easy. They're heavy and they're, it's a, it's a lot of work. So she wasn't, he wasn't in the right department. And he was just being a real complainer about it. And he was bringing down the whole crew. So it was tough. And for fun, the do's to now show we did at the LA Memorial Coliseum was a very challenging show, building a humongous stage with cranes and stuff that, you know, we had a crane that broke and got stuck in the, um, you know, building a huge front of house. And then of course it rained, um, on everything, which, um, we had some rain protection, but not enough rain protection. Cause we weren't expecting it to rain in Los Angeles now
Speaker 0 00:37:15 In Southern California in April. Right.
Speaker 2 00:37:17 Yeah. So that was a challenging one.
Speaker 0 00:37:20 Um, and then I couldn't walk on the grass.
Speaker 2 00:37:22 Yes. Right. Right. The Saudi show that we did in, in November was a huge challenge. I mean it set records. We had projection mapping across a thousand foot, uh, Vista with, um, 220,000 lumen projectors, 76 projection areas, uh, tons of, uh, D three servers that were driving that whole thing. And on a, um, you know, uh, uh, a UNESCO world heritage site that we weren't really allowed to touch. We had to work around with where we run on cable and how we attached us, you know, to the walls, into the flooring. And they were very particular about what we could do, you know, because it was a, it's a world heritage site and it's essentially a mud city. So we had to be very, very careful with that. And then, you know, all the structures that were being built around that and some of the logistic challenges that we were dealing with there, it also rained there ironically in the desert.
Speaker 2 00:38:24 So, um, that was, uh, an interesting challenge as well. It rained a lot. It rained a lot the night before the show and we had to, and then, and because we were dealing with the, with royalty, the Royal family was going to be there. Um, the Royal guard was going to lock down the site at, at some point. So we had to bring all of our spares, which we had in a, uh, an, a boneyard on the other side of the highway. We had to basically bring a bunch of, uh, trucks to go bring all the spares that we had available and bring them onto the site and store them in our production village, just because we knew we were going to have a bunch of failures from the rain, but the next day the Royal guard was going to lock down the site and we wouldn't have access to the spares. So we brought all the spares over overnight. Um, I had them available so that when the crews showed up in the morning, even though the site was locked down by the Royal guard, all our spares are onsite and we could be changing out lights and things as, uh, during the day,
Speaker 0 00:39:34 Did you have as many failures as expected or what is it, was it a pleasant surprise
Speaker 2 00:39:38 Or we had, we had a lot of, we, we had only one failure that actually I think, affected what the creative director wanted for the show. Um, it was a projector that was in the grand stand that was projecting onto a roadway across a bridge that went across. Um, we lost those two projectors due to rain. The rain cover wasn't strong enough for that. And it broke and we couldn't get a lift in to replace those two projectors. So those projectors never got replaced. I think that was the only thing that would have been, would have been noticeable by anybody who knew anything. I don't think anybody else understood that what they didn't miss anything. Um, but if you had seen the rehearsals, you would know that we didn't have that one little section of bridge projection for the show.
Speaker 0 00:40:26 Got it. So what do you, what do you like most about being a technical director? You've stayed a technical director for a long time now. Um, you know, of course you and I have discussed a lot about the idea of a technical producer being more than just technical director, but also helping with the design and making it look, you know, adjusting things, making it look pretty or making it more, um, you know, cohesive to the audience, making them feel better about what's going on. What do you like the most about doing what you do?
Speaker 2 00:40:58 Uh, I think that even though every the processes that we go through are the same, every show is a different puzzle. It's a different challenge. It's a different riddle to solve. Um, even if I'm in the same venue, the same client, same schedule, you know, same thing year over year, every year, there's something that's different. So we're doing the setup is a little different, or we might be doing the same setup, but, uh, the technology's a little different. Um, the crews, a little different everything. There might even the slightest change is a different puzzle. It's a different challenge. And that suits me personally. I don't, I would not be the kind of guy who could go into an office every day and do real estate closings or, you know, do accounting. I just would go crazy. I need a new challenge, a new puzzle to solve a new riddle to solve every day. So that's my favorite thing about being a TV is that every project is a new challenge, something new, new to overcome something new to learn. So,
Speaker 0 00:42:04 And how about the thing that you could leave behind? You're like, ah, I could get rid of this part of being a technical director. I'd like, I'd love to like delegate this to somebody else. What's your least favorite?
Speaker 2 00:42:14 Um, hi budgeting. I hate budgeting. Hey, putting budgets together. I would just love for someone to say, just make it the best ever. And I don't care how much it costs is my least favorite thing. Um, I, I don't love doing schedules, but I don't know if I could, I don't, I don't know how I would delegate that. Other than training someone who understood how long it took, do something, uh, to do that schedule for me. And, uh, you know, a lot of that is learned. And once you've learned how to do that schedule for me, then I'm going to put you out as a TDM. One of my other projects, I'm not going to have you sit behind a computer and do a schedule for me. I'm going to have you be doing, you know, earning money for yourself and for the company doing actual projects, not doing schedules for me. So
Speaker 0 00:43:17 Makes sense. Awesome. What, uh, shifting a little bit, what vendor selection, one of the toughest things I think that we deal with regularly, because there's so many influencing factors that come into it, there's producers, executive producers, relationships. I mean, what are you doing? How are you handling vendor selection as a technical director and managing that process, uh, of who's supposed to do this gig and who shouldn't do this gig.
Speaker 2 00:43:46 Yeah. Uh, it's very gig specific, obviously. Um, you know, if you have a small budget, challenged, um, project, I'm going to choose a turnkey supplier. That's usually regionally based. So if I have a show in Phoenix and it's a small, lower budget show, I'm going to go with a company that can do everything, um, in Phoenix because I don't have trucking, I don't know, travel. And, uh, so that'll be, you know, a lot of that is determined by project size and budget. Um, and then some of it, the clients might, my production clients will tell me who they want to use. Even if I can deliver the quality, uh, for cheaper with a regional client, they may say, no, no, we want to go with XYZ company out of Chicago because that's, who does all our work. And so a lot of times my hands are tied on that, which I'm fine working with any vendor.
Speaker 2 00:44:48 Um, you know, my client sometimes will ask me, who would you like to use in this scenario? It's a big show. Um, a very, very complicated show. I'm not, I wouldn't choose a turnkey supplier. I'm going to parse it out to individual specialists. Um, you know, uh, an OSA just to do audio or a firehouse production just to do audio and, you know, a, um, Zenith lighting or upstaging just to do lighting. I'm going to make sure that we've got, you know, the best partner for the right department in that scenario. And a lot of my clients in those larger shows, they may have their, um, preference on, on a vendor. But a lot of times they'll ask me to put that out to bid. So I'll send out an RFP to two or three vendors that I know, um, have the credibility and, uh, and the portfolio to do a project of that size. And when those bids come in, I'll, I'll work with my client and we'll make a decision on who the best vendor is. And a lot of times that's not specifically based on price. We may not go with the cheapest vendor. Um, we may go with the mid priced vendor, um, because we are more comfortable with that.
Speaker 0 00:46:07 Very nice makes sense. Um, the people out there, those in the nether verse that want to be the next level, you know, they're right now, they're working, they do breakouts. They do, you know, assistant management, project management, that sort of stuff. And they want to go up, you know, they want to move on to the next level. What, what are things that they can be doing now to say, Hey, I want to be being a technical director. I want to be a technical manager, a project manager, whatever, what are a couple of things they can do to help, you know, gain more skill, do more, get better at what they're doing to, to increase their game.
Speaker 2 00:46:49 Uh, I think probably the, you know, two things would be perf I think the best things that you could do, one is to increase your knowledge of it. Every department, as a technical director, you have to kind of be an expert in every department. I'm a Jack of all trades master of none. You know? So it, I w in that aspect, capitalize on every training opportunity you can do go to the Yamaha audio training seminars and exa bows go to go to one, uh, industry trade show every year, whether that's InfoComm or NAB, or, uh, LDI, you know, choose to spend the money and go and invest in your knowledge and expertise on everything. Walk the exhibit floor, learn about the new products, go to the trainings and the breakout sessions to learn how to program the new whizzbang, uh, grandma console. And, you know, the more knowledge you can have, the more tools in your toolbox from that side of things is going to help you as a TD.
Speaker 2 00:47:56 You may not program on a grandma, but what happens if your lady programmer comes down with coronavirus and you asked to jump in and help, if you understand a little bit about the console, even though he's, pre-programmed some of it you can jump in and actually navigate the console, because you know the constructs, cause you took a training class, you don't have to be the expert on the grammar, but you understand the ins and outs of it. And you can actually jump in and save the day. I've seen a TD, not on my show, have to jump in behind the soundboard because the audio guy had to leave. That's a, that's a very viable situation. I I've had to run camera. I can jump in and video directives necessary, or, you know, I could run sound if I needed to, because I have that expertise behind me.
Speaker 2 00:48:46 So if you're coming up capitalizing on every possible opportunity, investing in your future, by going to these conferences and expos and, and going to all the breakouts that you can to learn about every piece of equipment, every possible thing that you can do, if you one big one, the next one as a TD, the best thing you can do is to really get good at drafting, um, pickup platform, whether that's Vectorworks or AutoCAD, and just keep working at that muscle. Um, and, you know, learning all the new tools, learning how to navigate it and out to draft quicker, to be more efficient, to draft in 3d, to be able to do renderings and, and, uh, you know, making the pretty pictures out of the drafting as a TD, that those two skills would be the most that would serve you the most
Speaker 0 00:49:37 Love that that's outstanding. Now, as we're kind of wrapping up here, um, one of the main goals of this show podcast, or whatever you want to call it all is ultimately to help everybody become better, more gig ready for the next gig. So what are two things that are listening to this today? And they have a gig tomorrow, two things that they can be thinking about that can say, okay, these two things are going to help me gig better tomorrow, not five years from now, not when I reached the epitome of my career, but you know, tomorrow, what are these, what are something they can be thinking about?
Speaker 2 00:50:16 Um, you know, one, I occasionally will have this reoccurring nightmare, uh, before a really large show that I forgot to order the local labor or on my schedules. I transposed one number and I'm a week off and I'm going to show up on site and no one's going to be there because everybody's the next week. So, and those recurring nightmares always forced me to do one thing the day or two before I go onsite is to kind of go through my head in my mind, walk through the load in and make sure that I've, you know, as I'm going through the schedule in my mind that I've put all those pieces in place that the forklifts have been ordered and the rigors are out in the right schedule going, you know, many times I'll as an anecdotal example, I have to put in a rigging advance with a comp with PSAV to order all the rigors I'll do that months in advance because they want that information way before we've really drilled down on everything.
Speaker 2 00:51:22 And many times they're still, they haven't looked at my hotel letter or the schedules that I've sent since then. They're still going off the hook, the rigging advance, which has the wrong loading time. So going through that process a day or two before sometimes brings up those red flags that I've actually ordered the rigors at 6:00 AM on the loading day instead of 8:00 AM when the schedule changed. So I've caught that stuff, you know, and sometimes I haven't caught it, but it's many times I'll catch that prior to getting outside. So walking through in that minute by minute, but just walking through those key points in the schedule in your mind, making sure that you've ordered the forklifts, that you've, we've given the right schedule time to the local labor, to the union rigors, or, you know, to, to the ballroom guys that are dropping chairs, make sure that they know to come in at seven o'clock on the day of the load instead of 8:00 AM the next morning, because that's when their rehearsals are starting.
Speaker 2 00:52:24 Now, those kinds of things are, that's a big one just walking through in your mind and making sure all the I's are dotted and T's are crossed. Um, the next thing, the second thing would be I think, um, one mistake that I make because, um, I'll be running around working on multiple projects at the same time, or, you know, spend the time with family is, um, packing my gig bag. You might my mobile office the day before I have to leave. So if I have to leave on a Friday for a Saturday load in packing my gig bag on Thursday, when I'm not stressed about, um, you know, getting ready to go packing my luggage, actually packing, I get back to making all my printouts. And, and that's when I'm walking through the show on my mind too, is I'm printing out the schedule. I'm looking through the schedule and walking through it in my mind,
Speaker 0 00:53:26 Packing my gig bag up the day prior to me leaving so that I'm not stressed out with, you know, all the logistics of getting to the airport. Yeah. It would be the second thing I would encourage people to be get ready. That's awesome. I should do that more often. Unlike I'm the guy throwing stuff in my bag two and a half hours before my flight is supposed to take off and I live 45 minutes from the airport. So there are many times I'm like 10 minutes from the house and I turned around because I forgot something and I need it. Yeah. Yup. So, and then the other, you know, the other thing that, that house, especially on the printouts, like what happens is if you run out of paper or you run out of toner or least yet, now you have some margin, you have some runway, um, to get that stuff remedy before you have to leave.
Speaker 0 00:54:15 Yeah. Building, building margin into life is something I've been thinking a lot about lately. And I think that especially goes in our industry, any margin that we can give ourselves, whether that's load in, whether that's before the event, whether that's before we leave. Um, it helps to make sure that we can accomplish the task at hand. Cause without that margin event something's got to give. And, um, you know, sometimes it's the important thing that ends up having to not be as good as it could be because we lack that margin. So. Awesome. Well, Hey man, thanks so much for taking the time today. I appreciate it. Um, I hope you're well, hope I'm hoping your family's home and healthy and safe and all of this excitement of the Corona. We are. Excellent. Well, fantastic. Well, Hey, have a good evening. Thanks for everything. I appreciate it. And uh, I'm sure we'll talk soon, but uh, take care and have a good night. Yeah, you too. Awesome.
Speaker 3 00:55:14 <inaudible> thank you so much for joining us today. I am so excited and so humbled that you would choose to take just a little bit of your time to join us on this podcast and listen in on some of the great conversations that we're having. I hope that your next gig is better than your last because ultimately that is all that matters to me. I want to make sure that you are able to do better events, better shows better tours than you did yesterday. All because you gained valuable information and valuable knowledge from what we discussed here today. You know, I think that every single day we are looking to get better. And that is exactly where I want us to be. Now, the value that we bring to you is directly tied to each and every one of you, we could sit here and talk all day long about all the stuff we do, all the great events and everything like that.
Speaker 3 00:56:12 But if we're not giving you the value that you want, there's no way that this is going to be good for you. And ultimately who cares, who I talk to if you're not getting value, so please let know gig
[email protected]. You can reach out to me. I'll make sure to read every single email because I know that it's valuable to you to be heard. And I want you to share your ideas, your thoughts, who do you want to have on the podcast? Who do you want to share? What are things you want to learn? What are things you want to grow in so that we can get better at creating live events, people connect in person and each and every one of us facilitates that process in our own small way. I'm excited for what the future holds. I'm excited for where we're going. I know that there are great things ahead of us and they're not just behind us. Have a great rest of your day and we'll see you next time.
Speaker 1 00:57:04 <inaudible>.
