Speaker 0 00:00:00 This is the gig ready podcast.
Speaker 1 00:00:02 <inaudible>
Speaker 0 00:00:17 Hey everybody. Hope everyone's doing well today. We're back here at gig ready. And we're standing here with, or sitting here, I guess, with Kelly, Epperson, audio engineer, and audio designer with easy live audio. He is one of my favorite people in the world, for sure. He's an expert at what he does, and he has done it all over the world today. We wanted to spend a little bit of time talking about what it is to be an audio engineer and audio designer and a one in the corporate world and see, uh, some tips and tricks and other things that we do to make it better. Kelly, how are you doing?
Speaker 2 00:00:52 I'm doing great, Jordan. Thanks for, uh, thanks for inviting me and, uh, you know, I, you and I we've, we've been, uh, we've been in a few places together and, uh, you know, it's, uh, I love her friendship. I appreciate the time that we have on shows together and it kind of creates a unique bond, unlike most, uh, most business or jobs you might have.
Speaker 0 00:01:13 I agree completely. That is one of the best things about what we do is that, uh, you get yourself closer to family than you do with, uh, you know, a group of people that you just work in an office with. And you certainly go through some hard, uh, hard things, including rain and soaking wet day is and shows completely, uh, just off the rails. It's it's fun and exciting.
Speaker 2 00:01:37 Oh yes. Yes. That's, that's two words for it.
Speaker 0 00:01:42 I'm reminded Mark. And I actually talked to the other day, uh, Mark Herring and I were talking about technical direction and we discussed the show we did at the Colosseum a couple of years ago for the call, the rain and sanity that, that bestowed upon us with, uh, front of house and building everything out and the crane breaking. And it was, uh, it was, yeah, that was quite an event.
Speaker 2 00:02:08 Yeah. Working at scale. Isn't so fun. Sometimes,
Speaker 0 00:02:13 Sometimes 500 people in a ballroom is just really,
Speaker 2 00:02:17 Yeah, yeah. Sometimes it's just fine. I'll uh, I'll take it, you know, does the check cash yes. Go on. No, go home. Right. You know, let's just exit exactly. As long as I'm doing with people, I enjoy doing it with that's to me, like the number one thing, right. Then the, what I have to do with them. That's negotiable.
Speaker 0 00:02:37 There you go. I love it. So talking about being an audio and <inaudible> an audio designer, um, when you come into the, the met the matrix of a live event, what do you see your role? When you walk in there being someone calls you technical director or client know, producer says, Hey, Kelly, you're our a one. We want you to take care of this show. You know, how do you see that role? What do you see that as
Speaker 2 00:03:07 Well? It's interesting. Um, I think the first thing I look at it as is I'm there to represent the discipline of audio. Right. Um, that my job, you know, if you imagine sitting around a conference room table, you know, my role is to represent like a lawyer would, or like an accountant would the interest of their client. My client happens to be audio. Um, that said I'm also very collaborative. So I'm, I'm trying to look at it at both, both times going, okay, what's best for audio and what do we have to accomplish in a given project. Right. And, um, so I'm always, always thinking about audio because that's my job. Right. But the, how I think about it, I think is where I probably, you know, try to apply, you know, my own personal take and, and my, my sense of logic that, you know, um, while audio is my priority and yes, it starts with a and a, is the first in the alphabet.
Speaker 2 00:04:09 So I think we can all agree. It's probably the most important, but after we agree on that, the, the, the second most important thing is to recognize that it is about all the other disciplines that have to happen, that helped to create a, an event that is memorable for the audience. Um, so I'm also trying to think about video. I'm trying to think about lighting and the context of in that conversation. You, you talked about. Um, my job is to recognize that to, to the producer who we're all working for the end client, that the creative has been sold to, um, how do I fit into delivering that? Um, that's, that's usually committed to, well before I'm called, um, usually you, you and the producer and the executive producer and the account executive and the end client have already talked about what they envisioned this event being.
Speaker 2 00:05:10 So when it comes to me, sometimes my job is, is very easy. And, and I just, here you go, tell us what you need. And we go from there more times than not, it's, here's the project, take it from where you want to, but here's all the limitations that we're going to put on you kind of from the beginning. Right. And, and, and I understand that, cause sometimes that's just the way things have to happen. So having a good relationship, that's why technical directors or production managers or, or, um, tech managers are so important to me and having, uh, the ability to dialogue where I can go up to somebody like you. Right. We're important to you. You're important to us. Yeah. You're, you're the one that's going to help me explain to these guys why I need them to move five feet. Right. Um, uh, or, um, but it's, it's that, that communication.
Speaker 2 00:06:05 So when I'm coming in as an audio designer, um, sometimes they're not much designing to it. Are there, I mean, let's, let's face it, there's a number of projects where, whether it's you Mark or any other TD that I work with, come in and go, Hey, I need you to design a system. And by the way, here's where your audio points are going to be. Right. So it's like, I don't see that really. There's not a lot of design there. Let's be honest. But the, the, I think the design is in understanding, designing around limitations, right? Yeah. Sometimes we have to design to the parameters that we're given, not necessarily, Hey, what's the best audio design for this room. Now I do get those projects. They're pretty rare. These days, I'll be honest, the, where they go, this is a clean slate, put your points and where they need to be.
Speaker 2 00:07:00 Usually that'll happen when we're doing something that's in a five one, or kind of a immersive type of concept, right. Where that, that is a, a very significant discussion we have to have where things are located. Um, but generally, um, the majority of shows are about understanding that it's not any one department it's, you know, check D for all the above are important to pulling the show off. So when I'm thinking about the audio design, um, I'm thinking about that. And then obviously who vendors are, right? What's, what's the gear that I have to choose from. Sometimes it's going out to bid other times, it's going to be, um, simply saying, Hey, here's our partner that we have. And they either go, this is what we own, or what would you like us to get. Right. And so that design, it's a pretty broad term. Um, I think it's more so
Speaker 0 00:07:58 I gotcha. All right. So in an ideal scenario, let's pretend you had the ideal scenario of, um, I get to design it from, start to finish. What, um, you know, what does that look like for you when you come in and then you're thinking about, uh, or what are you thinking about when you're coming in from the beginning to design a system or put a system together? That's going to, let's say execute on a, you know, standard thousand person, uh, you know, general session, um, in a ballroom that's, you know, communicating the sales message for that company, you know, for, for the next year.
Speaker 2 00:08:38 Um, I think there's a few things that, um, I'm looking for when I walk into that conversation. Number one is, um, I want to understand the space I'm in and the seating configuration, um, audio, I, the analogy I use is the way that you would think about air conditioning or heating in a room. Audio is moving air, right? And it's about the cubic volume of a room. How high is the ceiling? How deep, how wide is the room? And then, you know, secondarily, what are the surfaces I'm dealing with? Right. So, um, I want to know that, and then the number two is where do you think your audience is going to be? Because I have kind of this 80% rule, right? How can I give 80% of the people, a similar experience may not, it's not going to be exact, you move around things that are going to be different, same as, um, you know, video or lighting, but we try to get the broadest number of people to experience that.
Speaker 2 00:09:40 So I'm, I'm gonna look at that. And then, um, I might say, Hey, here's where I'd like to be with this. Now, during that process, you may come to me and say, Hey, you know what, um, we're, this is where we want to do this opening component. That's, um, uh, a surround environment. And then we might say, Hey, in a smaller room like this, this could really work nicely. People could have, uh, you know, the, again, that 80% rule, a large number of people are going to benefit from this and they're listening. And it's good. So I'll start asking questions like that. Or a lot of times, again, you'll come to me and say, Hey, this is an idea of we've pitched. You're gonna, you're gonna give me kind of a heads up that, look, this is probably what's been pitched. This is probably what's been sold.
Speaker 2 00:10:31 How do we, um, how do we execute this? Or maybe during that process, you know, we're talking about it. And, you know, we keep a pretty open you and I, uh, and a few other people we know in common, we have a pretty open dialogue. So if something sounds pretty cool to me, I might reach out to you guys and go, Hey, you know what? Not for nothing, but I saw this. And it seems like a pretty cool thing. Let me do a little work on it, right. Or you're, you know, more times than not what happens is folks like you that are on the front line are hearing, Hey, this is what somebody would like to do. And then you're reaching out to us and going, how, you know, what are you, what have you seen implemented around that, that does this, right? Whether it works more importantly, right? Because you know, anybody can pitch you a bunch of ideas that would be cool to do maybe. Right. I do pride myself on knowing what doesn't work, because I've, you know, in the process of doing a lot of shows, you, you learn to fail forward, right? Yeah. And you never can fail during a show, but that process of getting there is about trying new things and going, you know, what, that idea that we were going to try, we should not do that. It is not going to end well at all. Right.
Speaker 0 00:11:45 Exactly. Well, and that's why we make that phone call is like, I don't want to commit to something. Oh yeah, of course we can do 7.1 surround sound in room. That's a thousand feet long by it's 500 feet wide. It it'll be perfect. And everybody, every seat in the hassle of the exact same experience.
Speaker 2 00:12:00 Right. You know, or then, then there's that note of, okay, well, we can do that. That's no problem. Technically, we're good. Now who's providing the content and do you have the six figures necessary to generate all this content that we're all prepared to deliver? Right. And, um, uh, so when you, when you ask, when I walk in and somebody just says, Hey, here's, here's that, that's what I'm looking for. The room to me is the number one thing, how the audience is configured in that room is number two. Then it just, you know, in some ways, you know, we, we use the statement. Gear is gear, right? As long as it's within a certain parameters of, of level of quality, you know, I can accomplish a lot with a lot of different brands. So I'm not as caught up initially. And what's it gonna be speaker wise, but rather what's the math I have to do because at the end of the day, it's physics.
Speaker 2 00:12:55 So if, if the cubic volume of the room is the first thing I'm looking for, the audience's configuration in that room is the second. Then the third becomes, what are the other scenic components I have to consider here, because if it's an led wall or it's a scenic designer that likes to work floor to ceiling, and then tell me that they want me to stay out of scenic, um, we have to have different conversations through that. Right. And so then I'll be looking at saying, okay, now, based on all of this, am I doing, can I get away with two or three hangs up front? Do I need to do a distributed system where I might say, you know what, I have very little trim available to me because we do have a lot of scenic. We have an led wall, we have all these things that are going to actually really connect with our audience and we need them.
Speaker 2 00:13:47 And they're very important. So I might say, well, why don't we do a distributed voice system, which I can get in a relatively small trim position that might say, Hey, you know, what would be really cool though? How about a couple of big hangs of PA up front though for stereo music videos that maybe they're a little further off and in that, but I can give people that experience when they walk in and they hear that opening video that is like, Holy crap, I've never had this at home. This is so awesome. Right. Um, and, and, but yet the voice, right, because I do pride myself in, in this one thing, voice is number one, all right. This is because the events we're doing a majority of the time, the call was all about music, but it was all about the message during the music and the message in between the music. Right. So it's, it's not just a simple, Hey, the music sounds great kind of thing. And so I'm thinking about that as well. When you're that off to me, I'm saying, okay, I know maybe it's people we've worked with a lot of company and I'll go, Oh, I know that presenter, I understand that style. Um, I'm going to need to design differently to make sure my voice PA has enough gain, um, because of that, or, um, again, we're here in service to the message of not the gear
Speaker 0 00:15:17 A hundred percent very true. Now, do you find that audio spend like equipment spend scales like it does with video where if they're spending more money on video content creation, that normally means that the video system has to be bigger and do more things. Whereas the same with audio where like 5.1 surround sound, for instance, you know, costs a significant investment on the pre-production side of things to create it. Does that also equate to cost involved in the actual execution of the event? Of course, more speakers, but, you know, I mean it does, is there a, I don't know if there's an exact, you know, there's no formula, but does that relatively flow along and increasing line as people put more into that?
Speaker 2 00:16:05 It does. Um, I think, like you said, it's not something that's like a, a quantifiable, okay. You just added five, one, you've just doubled your budget. Right. I don't think it's something like that. Um, but what it does, it is very incremental. Um, it's cost relative to content creation is relatively low. So in terms of talking about immersive audio or five, one, um, examples, the cost of adding the hardware to support that in a medium size audience say that thousand to 2000 audience, um, is going to be incrementally, let's say probably anywhere from 20 to 30% more right. To deliver that, but creating the videos and the pre-production time that really needs to be budgeted in to ensuring that that mix translates that could actually on some levels exceed your audio gear budget. Yeah. And it could exceed it by a factor of, you know, two or three potentially, depending on what you're trying to do. So, um, a lot of it is about designing systems. My philosophy is designing systems, number one, that scale as easily as possible, but then also trying to move a lot of that creative, um, into the room. So that, um, for instance, like in a five, one scenario, um, we have that post mixer sitting in the room with a pro tool system, listening to what they're mixing in the space, right?
Speaker 0 00:17:56 So the physical, like the guy that's making the final product, actually being able to listen to it before he pushes out the, you know, whatever he brings in his pro tools, rhino version, and then they push it. Oh, that's, that's super cool.
Speaker 2 00:18:11 Right. What, what, cause what we're finding is obviously, um, the client needs to hear the iterations right. And understand that. So they might go into the post house and listen to it in the control room there, or they might have a five, one set up in their conference room, or even I've, I've had situations where they took the file and listened to it at home, on their surround system at home. And, um, the that's nice. But then when you go into, you know, we're, we're typically hosting events in, in venues that are not, um, symphony halls that are not movie theaters that were never intended. They're big square or rectangle concrete boxes. Right. And we create the space. So when they listen to it and they go, Oh yeah, that dialogue, like I might say, look, the dialogue needs to be 3d, be hotter than a dial norm might be for a feature film.
Speaker 2 00:19:08 And they'll bet. Well, that, that doesn't work. That does, I listened to it and it's way too hot here in the studio and they'll come out on site and they'll go, man, that, that video or that dialogue treks way too low. I'm like exactly. Right. Because when we get into this space cubic volume, right, you're, you're showing up with a window air conditioner when you know, what you really need, you know, is, you know, a hundred thousand BTUs of, of, uh, you know, or, uh, not be to use that would be a tonnage that you would use for air conditioners, you know, of commercial air conditioner unit. But yet here we are, you know, with this little fan, like you like it is that kind of making your nails. And so that's a hard conversation sometimes, but that's one way I've found that where they can connect, they get in the room again, that collaboration point. I try to get to know these content creators so that they understand I'm not the adversary because what I'm trying to do is make their end results that much better. Um, it's not about in control. It's all about them coming in and knowing that they have control of this, this art they're creating in many cases.
Speaker 0 00:20:19 Wow. Are you finding more people want 5.1 and, and different types of, of audio variations compared to your standard left-right sub uh, you know, put it up and, you know, do just a standard event or they, you know, as we get, as the industry grows, we do more events. We do more things. People are like, ah, left, right? Whatever. Let's do something that more people, you know, they feel more a part of. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:20:49 That's interesting. I would say the answer to that is sometimes too. No, um, it's, it's, it's more often than not, um, that people are again after we have that conversation into, okay, what is this? Is this an opening moment? You know, is this a closing moment or is this something that can serve us the entire duration? What I've found is most of the time, um, people want to number one, create this visceral experience, something that connects the audience. And I might say to somebody, Hey, you know what, let's create a big opening moment that is more traditional left. Right. But those subs play a very big role because that's something people normally they don't experience at home to the same level. You know, imagine when you go to the concerts, right. And you hear that kick drum, right. And the drums are just, it's like, it's moving your chest.
Speaker 2 00:21:51 Cause all that air is moving and it creates it, activates something in people. Right. And that's where that magic starts to happen from that visceral connection. So I might say to somebody, Hey, you know what, let's just focus on getting a really great sounding stereo experience that has big bottom end, that, that, that has maybe a lot of effects in it to make it very engaging and say, you know, what take that money that you would spend on those extra three hangs of speakers, put it into actually bringing that person in the room and mixing. I mean, we just did that on a project. It was a traditional left center. Right. And, um, they still mix the whole opening moments sitting in, in the, the riser area that the audience was going to be in because we were able to create a connection. It wasn't five one, but it was about focusing on creating something that your audience rarely will experience sitting at home.
Speaker 0 00:22:57 Got it. That's cool. So let's talk tools and, and, and I guess workflow, what are the things that you do to stay organized as a professional, to, you know, be ready to go on site, you know, up until you're jumping on a plane and heading out the door?
Speaker 2 00:23:16 Um, well that one, you know, I think the two documentation, documentation and documentation, right. That's what we kind of pound home to everybody. Um, number one is the drawing, you're only as good as the drawing that you're working from. Right. Um, I, while my, you know, on some projects I might have as few as two audio hangs to worry about, usually there's a little center fill box, right. But nothing, you know, two, two motors could that's, that's not an unusual thing. Um, obviously as we go into distributed PAs and we add more and more speakers, um, the drawing is essential because the drawing number one is what unifies all the departments. Yep. I'd like to go here. Can you spare me this over here? The rigor saying, Hey, I only have this kind of load capacity and I'll go, okay, well then let's try this speaker system because, you know, I can free up 300 pounds or whatever.
Speaker 2 00:24:13 But, um, so vector works is what we, you know, kind of is our, uh, platform in the industry that we're all using. Um, but 3d, right. I'm, I'm looking at, I need to look at what you're looking at because you, as the, as the production manager or the technical director on the show, your job is to see everybody's, you know, your, your job is to zoom out 30,000 feet and, and, you know, make sure we're all playing nicely in the sandbox together. Um, and so the drawing that, that is stuff you just can't walk into a show and go, Oh, I'd like my PA here now. Thank you. Right. Not just because there's all kinds of, you know, approvals that have to be had by people, but just simply, it's not, it's not really professional, right. Practical for that matter or practical. Yeah. Both those peas.
Speaker 2 00:25:06 Uh, and, um, so vector works and then my, my routing, uh, uh, and signal flow, Intercom, all those spreadsheets, I like to use Excel spreadsheet. Um, and then sometimes I'll use Google docs. Um, when I need to have dynamic changes on site, you know, we'll, we'll be okay, well, we're going to change this patch. Um, ironically enough, I find that I tend to lean to Excel spreadsheets and printed docs more for very quick in, uh, go out, right. Kind of shows where it's like, look, it's going to change. Here's some blank sheets, and we're all going to work this together projects that are much larger in scope and scale, and go tend to go longer. I'll, I'll use like a Google docs kind of platform because there's going to be a lot of iterations of it. And it needs to be kind of collaborate on.
Speaker 2 00:26:00 Cause I might have, instead of a crew of three of us in audio, there might be five or six of us in audio. And on those projects, I have a dedicated PL Intercom manager. I have maybe even an RF coordinator. And then I have my normal, you know, a two that's dealing with all the mikes, but then I also have a system tech or two. So that's where as my, as my crew grows, I go to a more collaborative platform like Google docs. And then I'm really getting ready before we leave is having that conversation a week or so out with the, the vendor and whoever their, um, a two or system engineer is that's been assigned to the project and say, Hey, here's all the paperwork. You know, been talking about the gear where we're kind of dialed in there, but just here's what I know the show is right now. It will change. It will be different once we get there. But for now, let's say this is starting point. So that's kind of my workflow before I get on the show site. Um, if, if we're in a really tight time constraint, I might build like my Q lab files. Cause I use that primarily for playback sometimes spot on. But most of that I'm building on site because, um, that's when the content is really coming in and you know, they, um, sometimes
Speaker 0 00:27:15 Content until you get on site,
Speaker 2 00:27:17 Believe it or not. Um, yeah, you know, a lot of times we'll have conversations around what content is like, I'll have, I have a standard spec, right. That somebody says, Hey, we're building a video and I'll say, okay, you know, here, here are the channels. And that channel order, especially like if it's, um, something where I might say, Hey, uh, embedded audio, let's do, you know, left, right. You know, uh, two mics on the first pair and then break out the stems from there, you know, dialogues, stereo effects, whatever. So that when we're in that room, if they can't afford to send that, that mixer from the post house out, at least I have some latitude on site to go, Oh, we'll bump this up. We'll bump that down. And it doesn't really cost the client anymore because that's just how, it's how it's going to be, you know, um, uh, processed at the studio and I've got, yeah, I can DM bed. I got eight channels of audio, no waiting on an HD SDI. Right. And, um, that file that they're sent in, we have eight channels available to us. Why not use them? Right. So those are conversations I'll have, so that when we get there may not need it. I might just bring that stereo mix up and go, Hey, we're good to go. Um, but the conversations, and then I'm documenting those kinds of conversations into my routing. So we're prepared for it, but that's what I'm doing before I get on the plane typically, you know? Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:28:37 Okay. So you get on the plane, you get to the project. What, uh, what are things you're looking for onsite working with, whether a seasoned vendor that you've worked with all the time or a new vendor, you know, there's kind of the same process. What are you watching for? What are you looking for? What are you wanting from them?
Speaker 2 00:28:54 Um, one of my first things I'm, I'm looking to immediately make contact with my system engineer, who, while I am I'm, you know, the overall audio supervisor of a project and have responsibility for that, the, um, I I'm looking to them to drive that process. So we'll, we'll connect up right away and go, Hey, what's your plan? What's your strategy. Maybe if it's a new person I've never met before, it'll get me a little better read on who they are. And I might say, okay, well, I'm probably going to need to be involved more than I normally would be. Or, Hey, you know, I know this, this cat and you know, it's like, here's the paperwork I'm going to be back here, loading Q lab because, Oh, guess what? All my content showing up. Let's figure out how to, because it's a lot of, you know, we're rolling through doing a lot of stuff simultaneously.
Speaker 2 00:29:45 The other thing I typically try to do is take a quick inventory. You know, many times I'm not necessarily specking the system cause I'm bigger projects. I will I'll, I'll go through, I'll dry to an audio spec. I'll do a drawing. Maybe it's going out to bid. Maybe it's not, but you know, we'll, I'll, I'll kind of be a little more intimately involved. Sometimes I'll come into a project. It's like, Hey, here's the gear we're set to go. It's an all in one vendor, you know, and we'll VED conversations and I'll have gotten a good read by then whether, you know, whether or not it's going to be a good load end day or a bad end load in day and I'll plan accordingly. Um, but awesome.
Speaker 3 00:30:26 What I'll talk to me and say, Jordan, I have some concerns seriously. Um, yeah, we've had, we've had those conversations and other conversations.
Speaker 2 00:30:34 We've had a standing there literally during coffee break going, this group is awesome, right? I mean, you know, you're going to have good and bad days like everything. Um, but one of the things I've learned to do is, um, if it's a vendor who may not be as familiar with say Intercom, one of the first things I'll do is run through the inventory as it's coming off the truck and go, you know, do you have this? Do you have this? Do you have this? Do you have that most of the time it's there. Usually at that time of the day, I can go, Hey, and they'll go, Oh, you're right. We don't see X piece. Right. And I'll go, Hey, can you get on the phone under the shop? Let's get this underway. So by the time we get to it this afternoon, it's here.
Speaker 2 00:31:17 Right. Um, and then if there's any specialty things like, Hey, you know, we're doing where we've got an entertainment act coming in and we have a really compressed load in, I may say, Hey, I want you to take everything that was ordered for the performers writers and stack it over here. And we're going to do a quick inventory of that. Because again, I don't want to be figuring out that they miss something off the writer when the band is showing up, you know, while we're setting up for sound check, right. That's just not going to work. So those are typically things I'm doing during a load in, and that's why a system engineer is like the number one during load in time, your system engineer is your most important individual. That is the person driving the crew, getting the PA, uh, making it happen. Um, the second role that after that's done becomes the aid to now some, uh, on a smaller event, that could be the exact same person, right.
Speaker 2 00:32:15 They're just moving from getting the PA in and then the room to moving over to. Okay. I'm programming wireless, and I'm going to be the individual miking, the executive, right? Yep. So, and I'm also working hard than trying to, if it's a new set of people, judge, is this a person that's going to be really good with people? Um, there's been times when we had to have those kinds of conversations where it's like, I'm a little concerned about the bedside manner over here and you know, and that's the benefit of when we have working with the same team over and over again, whether it's a vendor or whether it's the production team from the production company, we all get to know and understand that end client. And, you know, I might go, you know, we all know this presenter's style and how they feel about getting a mic put on them. And I need somebody that's going to be very sensitive to that situation. Right. Versus someone who just, you know, my, so I'm looking for a different a to, um, methodologist contemplating, because especially when it's a new team of people, maybe I've never worked with.
Speaker 0 00:33:34 Yeah, I understand. Well, and you, you mentioned the 82, I mean, 82 and a lot of ways, um, is to me is one of the most important positions on the entire team. And unfortunately a lot of times people take it, they're like, ah, it's just the eight to like, he can do whatever. Like he's fine. Uh, when, you know, he's the last guy that the CEO sees before he steps on stage, you know, he's the last line of people that are, that, you know, yes, there might be a stage manager ushering someone on the stage with the eight two is like talking, interacting, and you have to have someone who is able and capable of talking the talk, being kind, you know, helping them understand it, especially if it's a CEO or a CFO or some, you know, C-level executive that hasn't done a lot of these before in many of them have not, they're walking in there fresh face, you know, they're like, wide-eyed, their eyes are all big. They're like, Holy crap, what are we doing here? Um, and that's a very important, critical component to what we're doing. And a lot of times people throw it aside.
Speaker 2 00:34:38 I, I agree. That's um, that's why on a lot of my projects I'll, um, especially on larger projects, I'll usually, I'm asked to include the, the a two on my payroll as part of my team. Um, because, um, I can then choose people that I think can understanding what we're going into. And, um, you know, that, you know, whether whether male or female, a tos, um, the gender doesn't matter at all, it's the ability to communicate well, right? To bring a sense of confidence to that, that presenter, um, like you mentioned, you know, an, a two, she may be, she may be the last person that executive is going to see. And there's a good chance because of, of just technical challenges that we always face that individual could also be walking up to a, a chairman just before they're preparing to walk up the steps and go, I need to swap your belt pack right now.
Speaker 2 00:35:52 Right. That, that is a position that even an executive producer or an account executive would never, ever, ever be in. They would never have a, they would because that's their role doesn't require that. Right? So now that importance of who that individual is, number one is critical to me because if that Mike's not working, it's going to reflect not on me first. It's going to reflect on that presenter first, right? Then it's going to flow downhill and I'll trust me, I will, I will end up getting a lot of heat and I will take the heat. And, you know, I will work with my team, but that's why that position over the years, I've come to say, look, we can pick just about anybody else, you know, randomly, and we'll make it work, but we need to have a different conversation around the, a two, because the two has two jobs.
Speaker 2 00:36:53 Obviously putting their mic on is the, is the most high profile job they will do. But I will argue that that it's not their most important job. Their most important job is ensuring that the microphone system in the background is organized and is working and is proper. Um, because if they're, if they're taking the wrong numbered pack out to that presenter, it doesn't matter how good they are with people. That's where the error occurred. Right. And I'm when I get on the headset and I go, you just sent the wrong mic out and they go, well, can you just get through rehearsal? Boom, to me, that's like a check Mark. That's a negative, like, no, no, because we're rehearsing. And we're going to do a show with this person tomorrow morning live, maybe it's via the internet to 50, 60,000 or a hundred thousand or millions of people.
Speaker 2 00:37:58 But we, we rehearsed for a reason. Right. And so, so when people give me that answer, that makes my hair stand up on the back of my neck. Right. That's like me saying, Hey, do you mind if everything's not quite right for rehearsal? Cause rehearsal in my mind is more important. I know I'm taking off on a tangent here, but this is why rehearsals are so important because the rehearsal, if you're going to mess up, the rehearsal is not where to mess up because that's the last time that individual, that talent is going to experience the stage till they walk on there for the show. Yep. And if they've had a poor experience, then that is only going to make life that much more difficult, you know, and then I'm gonna have to listen to the next morning on headset. Hey, is audio going to have a problem with this microphone?
Speaker 2 00:38:48 Yeah. You know what? I got up this morning and said, let's have problems with microphones. I love that idea. It can't be a bad idea at all. Um, you know, but I get it that they've got to ask the question, right. But I may ship I'm a captain goes down with his ship kind of person. Right. My job is to represent audio back to our original conversation point. When I'm sitting at the table, my job is to represent audio the same way. If somebody slamming on all my crew, it's like, Hey, give them some space. They need the time to finish what you want them to get done. All right. Yep. Give them that space. Right. That's my job to represent my crew equally. I have to take the criticism and then I have to be willing to go back and go, okay, that was not good.
Speaker 2 00:39:37 And not only can it not happen again, what are we going to do? Show me the things we're doing differently. Right? Yeah. And that's how you quickly are able to delineate between the, the <inaudible> who sees their job as this is what I do. And I embrace it fully. And the look, I'm just doing this because I want to become the Awan. And I just, or I'm the staff guy and they're sending me out because they make more money on me. I mean, sometimes that's just the reality of the budget. And, um, and I have to convince people that, you know what, I get it. I know I'm managing against everything you're feeling right now, but this is what I need you to be in what I need you to do
Speaker 0 00:40:24 A hundred percent. Well, um, I couldn't agree more. I think that the <inaudible> is an incredibly important position, uh, that a lot of people take for granted. So hopefully people will begin to take them less for granted in the future. Um, you know, we travel a lot all over the world. There's many things that we do. What are some things that you take with you when you travel no matter where you're going, you know, here in the U S across the pond, you know, no matter what, what are a couple of the things that you take with you, you travel with at all times?
Speaker 2 00:40:59 Let's see for me, I have my, I have my toolbox that is actually in a, um, uh, in a, uh, Eagle Creek bag, which I have on my Pelican, uh, dividers inside of, um, a, it saves on weight because payload capacity. So I hate giving up any amount of weight, um, cause I want, I have to be prepared with all the typical tools that you would have as an a too, because sometimes I'm called upon or a system person to be a part of that load, right. Cable, checkers, and headphone amps. And in all the little bits that, that go with that. So I always carry that with me, no matter how big or small I have my roller board that has my normal tools, my loudness meter for monitoring records. I have my, my playback. I always carry typically three laptops with me, uh, is kinda my minimum configuration.
Speaker 2 00:41:56 Um, so I have, I have four bags and one's a backpack. One's a I roller board. Um, the other is my gig box and then my suitcase and I always carry these four. So that every time I get to the airport, I count my four bags that have gotten out of the car. And when I go to pick up my luggage at there at the, uh, airport account for right. So I keep, I try to stay in numbers where I can, I don't have to think about it now when I go internationally, it's a little more challenging because I usually have to add an extra layer of things, because there are certain things that, that I, um, I like to have, um, power strips that are two 20 and they have the combination outlets on them. Um, and I always, I always bring three, um, one for the hotel room, one for my front of house mix position, and then one to share because inevitably somebody needs something and the producer's not going to have it.
Speaker 2 00:42:59 Right. It's either the people I'm working for or the end client. And generally I like to keep them happy. Um, so, um, and, and be helpful. Um, the, um, uh, those are, those are those kinds of things. I usually like to have my Skype out, um, account with a few bucks on it, um, to, to be able to enable international communications. Um, and I'm always prepared to, to tie into the Intercom system wherever I'm at rather that's domestic or internationally. So I always have that in my kit because, um, it's inevitable. Um, I remember years ago we had an executive that couldn't get in because of weather and basically had to use Skype as a phone line to listen to the CEO. Right. Um, because we couldn't get, uh, a plain old telephone circuit into, uh, you know, uh, the, the room and can't hardly do it anymore.
Speaker 2 00:43:59 Everybody's like, I can get you, I can get you data for days. I just can't get you a phone line. Um, so those are the kinds of things I think about. Um, and then, um, I try to, to make sure that my gears packaged in such a way, it doesn't draw a lot of attention to it. So I tend to not fly with pelicans, um, as my check done, um, because it kind of raises some flags to people. Um, and, um, it, now, if I have specific gear that needs protection, obviously I'll use that, but, um, internationally I ship things FedEx, um, uh, it's actually become quite affordable when you do the ground service. And I have all the tracking it's much more secure and it takes care of all my customs challenges, things like that, but the stuff I carry, I usually try to make sure that, um, it's an, a standard type of suitcase.
Speaker 2 00:44:52 Um, and, uh, you know, again, a lot of that just being cognizant of, you know, and then my, my cell phone, obviously throwing on an international package, which now I don't have to worry about anymore companies like at, and T I just 10 bucks. Just remember when you land in London and you turn your phone on it's 10 bucks, and then when you make your connection to Paris and you turn your phone on, it's another 10 bucks, even though it's the same day. So it's 20 bucks that day. Um, so just little things, but yeah, that's generally kind of my, my kit that I carry. And then I have all my special stuff, depending on the show I'm doing from time code readers, like a D strip alizer where I can re you know, read time code, redistribute it, you know, um, and, uh, you know, special playback systems, again, depending on what I'm working on. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:45:44 That's makes perfect sense. So what are the three things of everything, uh, three things that you need on every single show. It doesn't matter where it is in the world or what you do. Three things.
Speaker 2 00:45:54 That's a really good question. Um, in no particular order, um, a laptop, um, my Q box, which is the whirlwind, uh, cable test or listener box. And that third one, what would be that magic? Um, Apple requires so many dongles. Now that that's my backpack though, but it's in there just gotta make sure it's part of my laptop kit. The, what would I do, trying to think when I stripped my RF analyzer, um, those would be my, my, my three must haves because if I have to cover anybody's positions or Cape or cover somebody's capabilities, all three of those tools would allow me to, to do that nice Adam at a minimum level. So what
Speaker 0 00:46:57 Lots of great tools, lots of fun stuff to work with technology everything's growing. What is your favorite part about being an audio engineer? Audio? A one.
Speaker 2 00:47:08 Yeah, I think my favorite part of being an a audio mixer is the fact that I get to be in the roles. I work on that audio coordinator to be able to create and craft solutions and teams for a show, um, that it's, I love technology. I love gear. Um, some days I don't enjoy learning more. Um, I do try to stay very broad and understanding of whether it's comms wireless consoles, but I think what I like most is being that person that gets to, to help craft a, a team and a solution that is audio centric.
Speaker 0 00:48:01 That's awesome. So what is you create the team? You go out to do the show, what's the toughest show you've ever done? The one that says, wow, I hope I never have to do that ever again,
Speaker 2 00:48:18 Never again. Um, most of the shows that I came out feeling that way I ended up at the moment. I was never wanting to do it again. Um, the shows I won't, I can't really give you an example of a specific show, but I will tell you where, where the, when I've had poor interaction with the production team, where they don't value, what we do, that is my number one. I could have all the technical challenges in the world. I could have you throw change after change, after change at me, what I can't deal with is when someone really is, is whether it's disrespectful or whether it's just simply, Hey, you're here to do whatever I tell you to do. And I'm going to, they're not pleasant people to work with. Those are the kinds of shows. I usually make big notes in my calendar.
Speaker 2 00:49:16 Um, and then I make sure to tell my wife so that when I take the job again, she goes, I thought that was when you never wanted to do again. And I go, Oh yeah, that's right. Let me go back to my notes. Cause I keep show notes about the different projects I do. And, um, and I go, I could, I would add this. I changed this, the shows that basically have no notes are indicative to me, of people that I've never found a good connection with, because it usually means I'm not interested in that. Um, being in that environment, um, I, that don't confuse this with an arrogance or with, with a, Hey, I'm just happy to be working because that's going to be kind of how we all feel. But even coming out of what we're challenged with right now, I think it's all the more reason to say, look, I need to be working with people that I can bring value to, and that recognize what we're bringing.
Speaker 2 00:50:14 So all that to say, um, there've been a lot of hard ones. The one you, you talked about at the top here of that we did at the, at the, uh, Coliseum. That was that a lot of work. Yeah. That was a really complex show. And, um, we, uh, there were a lot of challenges and, um, uh, at the moment it was rather hard. I learned, I don't know why I didn't ask for a port-a-potty behind front of house. How could they not think of that over seven days? I just didn't go, you know, what could I get a port-a-potty behind the front of house makes position? I mean, it's blocking everything anyhow, because it's already 22 feet tall. Yeah. Can I just come back here? Um, so it would've made it a lot shorter walk. Um, but, um, what I did, what I have learned from the most difficult productions I've ever worked on, and then I lied difficult productions. I walked out with the best strongest relationships I've ever had in my life. And that, that is something that is extremely important to me.
Speaker 0 00:51:26 Very cool. So I know we're getting close to the end here and you're going to have to go soon, but I had just two or three more questions real quick. Number one. Um, if I wanted to become an, a one, an audio guy, or I wanted to up my game to the next level, I'm ready to, uh, you know, go from systems engineer to doing mixing the actual shows. Uh, what are, what are two things that I should do that I can be preparing myself to move into that next role?
Speaker 2 00:51:58 Um, I think the number one is, uh, making, gathering as much knowledge as you can, being as intimately aware of all the technologies that are out there and that you're going to have to be prepared for. Um, and that means, you know, whether that's paperwork learning to embrace the things that seem very trivial and menial like paperwork and, and maybe, maybe that's not something you struggle with. And that's great. Um, it took me a while to really embrace that. There's a lot of un-fun things about that role. Um, the, the number two thing is to, to guess boy, understand, be careful what you wish for. Um, it's, uh, there's a lot of things I enjoy about being a mixer. There's a lot of emotions I hate about being a mixer and the weight and responsibility that comes with a lot of that. So, um, much of it, um, I was, I was coming to somebody I'm like so odd that I'm kind of doing what I never got in the business to do. Um, but, uh, it is all about relationships. Um, you'll get more work because you have a good attitude and you have to focus on delivering obviously. Um, but uh, in our industry, there's just not a lot of options otherwise. Yeah. So those would be my two big things.
Speaker 0 00:53:33 What do you do to get more work? You know, we're many people in our industry are freelancers. What are, are there any, you know, kind of like silver, silver bullets that you found that are the magic pill or,
Speaker 2 00:53:48 Um, word of mouth number one is how I get almost all of my work word of mouth referrals. Um, you people like you saying, Hey, are you available folks? I've, I've established working relationships with, um, that is number one. You can advertise all you want, but word of mouth referrals is how you're going to get your work
Speaker 0 00:54:17 Very, as good as your last gig
Speaker 2 00:54:19 You are. And communication is number one. Right? Absolutely.
Speaker 0 00:54:24 Awesome. So last, uh, last question. A lot of the people that are listening, we're already in the HIV world, we have a gig next week tomorrow, or in our case currently three months from now,
Speaker 2 00:54:38 But
Speaker 0 00:54:41 What are two things that we can do to be more gig ready going forward in our next gig? So let's say someone's listening to this three months from now. They just finished today's gig, they're ready for the game tomorrow. You know, two things that they can say, okay, I, if I implement these two things tomorrow, I'm going to have a better gig, a better day. You know, people are going to be more apt to say, Hey, that person right there is somebody I want on my team. The next time we do this show,
Speaker 2 00:55:09 Uh, gig ready is, um, taking this downtime to get as much knowledge as you can. Um, everybody complains that they don't have time that, you know, I don't, I don't have time to, to do this cause I'm going to my next show. And, um, the, the, that's not, that's not a viable answer anymore. Right? You've got the time understand whether that's Dante, whether that's, um, uh, RF coordination, whatever your job, your role requires. Um, and then connect with those vendors that, that you're gonna work with. Keep those conversations open. Cause when those shops open again, you should be in there getting your hands back on gear, right? When they, when they tell us yet we can be in there, come in on your own nickel where you can, uh, you meaning you're out your, the time. Um, sometimes you can't fly in there, but the people that, that are willing to invest in themselves and in their processes, um, are the ones that I think should be, um, rewarded with that. Um, you know, additional work because they're really, they, they get it. They're, they're, um, they're investing in, in themselves and in the rest of the team. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:56:29 Take the time to learn new things because that's incredibly important. And when you can get hands-on equipment or look at things with your own time, because that's going to cause the vendor that you work with or other vendors to say, Hey, this person wants it more than that other guy who was complaining the other day about not having gigs, I'm going to give it to the person who says, I'm coming in to figure this out now so that we can do a show tomorrow. That's better than it was yesterday.
Speaker 2 00:56:58 Exactly. And, and, and what we're, what we need to do is be able to, like you said, um, uh, show ourselves as prepared to go that extra mile to, um, uh, to be able to, um, get where, where the vendor may be in some challenging times and say, Hey, can I be a part of, of helping you get back to where you were? And, and can you help me by giving me access to things that maybe I never had before? Right? Yeah. Gear I've been away now for, you know, as a technician, I've been away for three months, not doing shows. I need to get my head back into this right. Every day kind of staying in the workflow of things and, and how that's going to go about. So totally that would be my recommendations.
Speaker 0 00:57:49 So Kelly, how can people reach out to you easily, if they have questions, want to talk about, you know, best practices going forward, other things like that are ways that they can get better at what they're doing now, what's the best way to get ahold of you. And it,
Speaker 2 00:58:03 Um, my suggestion is go to my email. Kay.
[email protected]. And, uh, you know, I love to converse. My number is (708) 829-1156. I will talk to anyone and everyone about audio, even if I'm not working your show, you know, that, um, I love to collaborate. I love to share. And, um, I love meeting really great people. And one thing I've learned is that good people tend to like to be with good people. So that's what I'm going to do.
Speaker 0 00:58:39 That's right. Awesome. Well, Kelly, thanks for your time today, man. I appreciate it. I know you guys have some awesome trainings going on right now. Webcasts webinars, you guys are teaching.
Speaker 2 00:58:48 Yeah. We're doing practical show tech.com. Right. And that's kind of something we picked up, just, um, trying again, trying to educate ourselves and make, you know, help bring benefit to the rest of the markets, uh, in doing that. So
Speaker 0 00:59:04 Show tech.com. And I assume that even after where we are right now, that's going to continue on, you guys are at least going to keep those things live and available.
Speaker 2 00:59:13 That is it'll be, we'll be moving. Um, they're available on our website, in the archive and then they'll also be available, um, at some point on YouTube. So yeah, we're, we're going to keep the conversations open and keep running through the summer.
Speaker 0 00:59:27 Love it. Awesome. Thanks Kelly. I appreciate, uh, everything and, uh, of course always loved being on site with you doing shows with you, uh, looking forward to getting back to doing that hopefully sooner than later.
Speaker 2 00:59:39 Exactly. And, uh, let's talk even if, even if the show ain't happening and let's keep talking. That's right.
Speaker 0 00:59:45 Awesome. Thanks Kelly. We'll have a great day.
Speaker 2 00:59:48 Thank you, Jordan. YouTube. All right, bye
Speaker 0 00:59:51 <inaudible>. Thank you so much for joining us today. I am so excited and so humbled that you would choose to take just a little bit of your time to join us on this podcast and listen in on some of the great conversations that we're having. I hope that your next gig is better than your last, because ultimately that is all that matters to me. I want to make sure that you are able to do better events, better shows better tours than you did yesterday. All because you gain valuable information and valuable knowledge from what we discussed here today. You know, I think that every single day we are looking to get better. And that is exactly where I want us to be. Now, the value that we bring to you is directly tied to each and every one of you, we could sit here and talk all day long about all the stuff we do, all the great events and everything like that.
Speaker 0 01:00:49 But if we're not giving you the value that you want, there's no way that this is going to be good for you. And ultimately who cares, who I talk to if you're not getting value. So please let me know gig
[email protected]. You can reach out to me. I'll make sure to read every single email, because I know that it's valuable to you to be heard. And I want you to share your ideas, your thoughts, who do you want to have on the podcast? Who do you want to share? What are things you want to learn? What are things you want to grow in so that we can get better at creating live events, people connect in person and each and every one of us facilitates that process in our own small way. I'm excited for what the future holds. I'm excited for where we're going. I know that there are great things ahead of us and they're not just behind us. Have a great rest of your day and we'll see you next time. <inaudible>.
