Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:01 Welcome back everybody. Jordan Goodfellow here, gig ready first before we get started today, just wanted to say thanks. Thanks for listening. Thanks for being awesome. Thanks for being professionals that actually want to grow and learn and get better at what you're doing. If you could take five seconds, 10 seconds right now, hit the like button, subscribe to the gig, ready podcast. Let people know what we're doing, what we're talking about because frankly in the grand scheme of things, if we're not getting better, we're probably getting worse because we're only as good as our last show. So make sure you're listening. Make sure you're learning because this is the gig ready podcast.
Speaker 1 00:00:39 <inaudible>
Speaker 0 00:00:55 This is it. Jordan Goodfellow here. Get ready podcast. Joe Mack standing on the other side of the camera, Joe, how you doing? Thanks for being here today, buddy. Doing well another week in the books. That's right. We got another week. We got a great week this week. We've got Pete. I always get your last name wrong, dude. Can you just say it for me please? Why Jessica? Why Justin? Thank you, Pete. Why Jessica and Dan Crow, uh, both audio engineers. <inaudible> guys that know how to make it loud, make it sound good, but we're not talking about the live room today. We're talking about virtual and frankly the one area that I don't know much about and has really honestly overwhelmed me when I think about like making audio happen, stripping it off of signals, bringing it in, remixing it and making it better to send out to the people that are watching at the other end of the, uh, the other end of the interwebs. Um, so I'm excited to talk about it guys. Thanks for being here. We appreciate it. Great to be here. Thanks for having us. Yeah, you're welcome. So we've moved out of the ballroom at least temporarily. Uh, soon we'll be moving back into hybrid and we'll talk about a little bit of hybrid, but, um, how has moving out of the ballroom changed the way that audio now has to be executed for events? What has changed? Let's just start with the nuts and bolts of it. Dan, what do you, what do you think?
Speaker 2 00:02:26 Well, for me, uh, it takes about 80% of what I had been worried about in the past, out of the equation. Um, so all the stuff having to do with the rest of the systems, audio, uh, in the venue and acoustics, um, and speakers and speaker placement, all that's, um, uh, allowed, allows you as audio guy to concentrate much more on, um, on the simple part of getting proud of complex part of getting a signal, um, and getting it clean and clear and getting it where it needs to go. Um, all of the other things with a show, um, with are pretty much the same, um, calm becomes incredibly more important. Um, uh, microphone placement, um, becomes much more important. Um, and you want to keep things stable, um, keeping track of loudness, where in a live show, you, you could be loud, it could be quiet. You have to be much more consistent, so much more attention to detail, but, um, thankfully, um, you're got the space to do that because you're not worried about, um, the, you know, 3000 attendees or a hundred attendees. Um, you're worried about the one presenter or the group of presenters or making sure that the signals coming in from, um, uplink or downlink are all good.
Speaker 0 00:03:59 Got it. Okay. Pete, what do you think, buddy? Um, I mean, how has it changed?
Speaker 3 00:04:06 Well, yeah, I mean, as Dan said, uh, it's similar, but not exactly the same. It's, um, you know, some of the challenges that we are well-established in that we're used to, we don't have to deal with anymore. Um, and so we went from an industry that was very mature in, uh, knowing its challenges to, uh, a form of work with very little known, uh, snags. And so the audio departments in general have had to really adjust, uh, their workflows to accommodate, uh, these shows, look, they're not broadcasts, they're not ballroom corporate shows. They're not, uh, a musical event. These are, you know, being produced by mostly producers that have produced live shows with audiences. So they are bringing that live element into a broadcast scenario. So your normal kind of TV mixing workflow doesn't work, your normal ballroom mixing workflow doesn't work. And so, uh, you know, there's a, it's a, it's a, it's a meld between all of the different workflows of mixing for the types of events, but also the positions, you know, monitor engineers have generally done pretty well at these shows because it's tons of different mixes going everywhere.
Speaker 3 00:05:30 Um, and if they're in your monitor mixers, they have to be pretty consistent. Um, with Intercom's intercoms have to be probably the number one thing on these shows that's, uh, you know, besides internet, uh, in terms of importance and the time to advance the intercoms correctly is probably double a live show because you can't just walk up to somebody and say, Hey, give me button on your pack. It's and when there's an issue, the, you know, the TD can't walk over to the projectionist to ask why a projector when like it's all everyone's remote. And so, you know, those communication lines have to be, uh,
Speaker 2 00:06:15 Uh,
Speaker 3 00:06:16 Defined, you know, um, pretty well and, you know, boundaries have to be put in for people to be able to communicate effectively.
Speaker 2 00:06:24 Gosh, so, so, so what are the, what are the biggest mistakes that you're seeing companies make with digital virtual audio? Dan, do you want to take that? Well, uh, you know, I think most of the people that I deal with are pretty, they're already pretty savvy. Um, uh, the harder, I think the harder thing, it's all more content related, how I'm making presenters, um, comfortable enough to actually not look like they're just looking on a zoom call and into, um, so what audio can do to help that is, is, um, is try and make the audio part as seamless as possible, but that's, it's really, um, uh, I don't know. Um, that's okay.
Speaker 0 00:07:20 And maybe, I mean, maybe they're not making mistakes and that's what we want.
Speaker 2 00:07:25 Um, or, or maybe it's just that, you know, I guess I would go back a little bit. I think for me, um, there hasn't been one standard setup, so, um, there's been, uh, there's for me, there's been a high learning curve, uh, because, um, things, uh, like unity com um, RTS interfaces have become so much more important than it's hard to stay up on. Um, and the equipment itself. Um, one of the shows I did was in a small studio, um, in it, in the audio was done through a Ross Carbonite ultra switcher, um, which allows you to control the audio. Um, but you know, I had to do a lot of homework to figure out what I could actually control, um, talk with other video engineers to figure out how it actually worked. Um, so that's, uh, but in terms of the overall, um, audio, it was it's, it's the same, it's the signal flows, remarkably similar, um, things like compression and loudness become more important, but all the basics are, are much the same. I think, um, audio in general is probably more similar to what it was in the past than for any other department.
Speaker 2 00:08:49 Do you have any, do you have any other thoughts on that?
Speaker 3 00:08:52 Yeah, I mean, I, I agree with Dan, uh, you know, if, if you're mixing a show in a, in a, in a ballroom and you have records, those records are now your main output rather than the PA you know, or, or, um, or, uh, an internet output of some sort. I mean, the mistakes I've seen people make, honestly, the two biggest ones are, uh, assuming everything is okay, you know, in live, we're able to sort of adjust quickly. And there's a, a little bit of acceptance when, when you get into that first technical rehearsal of something's not quite right. Um, and you know, people can run to the rescue and fix it. And, um, also from day to day, I mean, you know, the routing is a lot the same, but there's more of it. And so, you know, double-checking, um, like for me, double checking my work, I do that all the time and every time I do it, I find one little thing that in two days it might snag me and it's not, it's just, there's just so much. And, um, so that's number one. And then, um, uh, just the pre-show kind of lead up and setting expectations and just kind of trying to understand what type of show it is, and then setting those expectations for the presenters or for the clients, so that they walk away feeling like they receive the show that was presented to them. That seems to be one of the bigger kind of hurdles, uh, you know, from start to finish,
Speaker 2 00:10:26 I've just jumped off, jump in on that and say, that's, there's been a lot of shows that I've done where people know exactly what they're doing and what they want. And there's been some really people that aren't in our business are trying to do shows that they're not, none of this is, um, something that they're comfortable with or know how actually works. Um, so the, the pre-production and actually finding out what they want to do. Um, you know, like, do you want to, do you want to interact with this person? Um, do you want to see slides? Um, th the, the client has to rethink what they're doing, um, and the sooner we're involved in that, so we can figure out how many microphones, what kind of, you know, what, how stuff's gonna be backed up. How's it going to become inbound? How's it going to go outbound? Um, so there's a lot more pre-production, um, uh, involved, um, and, uh, and a steeper learning curve as, as equipment varies from project to project.
Speaker 0 00:11:36 Is it, is there, I mean, of course there's a lot more IP based equipment, Dante, um, you know, lots of Riedel panels, you were talking about unity comm. Um, are you still using a lot of the, or any of the connectivity that you were from a copper standpoint or is it just network cables everywhere by 2000 feet of network cable before every show re terminated, all, plug it all in, you know, make sure it works, check those connections and everything's digital now and are not digital, but everything is, is IP based completely.
Speaker 2 00:12:13 I think it depends on the project. Um, a couple of them have been really, really standard. Um, and a couple of them have been all over Dante, uh, tilt their outbound, um, and really like the Ross Carbonite's switcher. Um, there's no audio connection at all, really, uh, cause it's all coming in HDMR um, uh, so both the audio and video coming in, there are no time sync problems because it's coming in, uh, all as an HTMI signal. Um, so it's been different every time, but I would S I would say there's not a standard, um, uh, in any way. Um, so you have to be, you have to know a little IP. You have to, you know, you have to be ready for what's, what's going to show up, how do you, sorry, you brought up a great point. It, it really is the wild West, uh, when it comes to producing events, um, I've felt like there's been no right or wrong answer. Everybody's come up with their own solutions to very unique problems. Um, what, tell us, tell us more about, you know, how, how that, that ability to, to not have any rules has helped you or hindered you?
Speaker 2 00:13:39 Hmm. Uh, well, you know, I think it's probably the same for, for Pete as it is for, I went by the time we're involved. Um, there's a fair amount of, um, of stress and pressure, um, already. So they're expecting that we just handle whatever the wild West part of it is. Um, we're going to make it work. Um, and, you know, I think you can see that, um, by looking at anything that you're any content you're, you're looking at on the web these days, it goes from really bad, you know, a guy with a guitar, um, making a few bucks, uh, through donations on a, on a website to really high-end production, uh, and EV but it is all the wild West. There's no one S one mixer. Um, that's that, um, seems to be, uh, better than others. No one video switching system, there are a lot of proprietary systems out there as opposed to your standard zoom. Um, so, uh, it's, it's just you, you gotta be ready. Yeah. And back to the mistakes
Speaker 3 00:14:52 Part of it, one of the, actually the largest, most detrimental mistakes that, uh, various people make in the, in the hierarchy chain or have made in the past is assuming that the show is the same or assuming that, Oh, it's the show that happens every quarter. And it's all exactly the same way. Well, yeah, it was exactly the same way when we did it in person, but, you know, like all the ones that I've been involved with that have been the same show, every single show has been different in one way or the other, either more remote presenters, less remote presenters, internet storms that day, not internet storms that day. Uh, the set changes the camera angles change the way that we transport signals is different. And so the, uh, you can't, um, you know, one of the unsettling things for people that are accustomed to live shows is we can't settle into a comfortable position doing these jobs because the variables on every single one of 'em, even if it's the same client and same show, they, they, they change and you just have to be on your toes all the time.
Speaker 3 00:16:02 And, you know, most live operators are used to, especially audio mixers are used to feeding off the audience. So the audience is digging the song. Maybe I'll boost it a little bit, or, you know, that keynote speech was really powerful. So that walkout songs were gonna need to be a strong one or whatever. And, you know, you're in that room with the audience, you know, feeding off of them, your, you know, your energies feeding off them being in a control room. And some far, far away place, not all live guys are used to that, uh, being disconnected. So it takes a different set of personality skills to stay focused.
Speaker 0 00:16:43 It's harder to feel the vibes. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:16:45 Yeah. And you know, a lot of my friends say, Oh, you know, that's, that should be such an easy show. It's just, you know, it's just one microphone and a presenter. And, uh, and that's usually the hardest shows because there's nothing to hide behind. There's no music, there's no audience out. There's no. Um, if there's a problem with acid is, or peas or a hit on a wireless there's, it's just, you're really you're naked. So it has to be pristine, no parachute, no parachute. Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:17:19 No applause to cover that late Mike pick up, you have to be, uh, you know, if there, and, you know, that's part of the workflow thing, you have to be in sync with the director. And I mean, that's with TV broadcast too, but you know, if he switches or they switched to something and you don't have that audio up, it's your problem. And you just made a mistake. So yeah,
Speaker 0 00:17:40 I've removed the word easy from my vocabulary in the last three years, because I used to say that and like, just like you sat down, as soon as the word came out of my mouth, the entire show went to crap and it was like falling down the stairs for flights. So I I've turned to the word straight forward. Now when someone asks me, you know, how is it? It's a very straightforward show for presenters and, you know, and it's in a ballroom and that is it. But the word easy does not come out of my mouth anymore. That's kind of like my knock on wood, I guess, um, has this leveled, the playing field with certain pieces of gear when it comes to like the <inaudible> for it, let's, let's say this. So Yamaha cl series, you know, before they came out with the Rivage or <inaudible>, whatever the heck it is.
Speaker 0 00:18:28 I don't know. Um, that was like the standard. I mean, every single RFP I ever got <inaudible> because that's what the engineers wanted. Um, but, you know, with the sound crafts and even the Allen and Heath and the, um, the, uh, what the Avids and the digit codes, and I mean, has this kind of level that playing field a little bit where people aren't as picky for what console they want because of the sound or because of how it functions, or is it still exactly the same? I need my desk this way, because that is, you know, what I need,
Speaker 2 00:19:09 I think budgets are way different. Um, so, uh, we're in the past, I would definitely get to call out the console. I want it, um, I'm much more, uh, it's what the client has in their studio, in their facility, um, in their system. Um, but, um, it's, uh, I think with the advent of digital consoles, it's a very level playing field. Um, uh, they're good, good results can come from all of them. And it's, it's all the basic having the basic audio skills to know, um, gain, um, compression, uh, limiting, uh, it's just a much more razor focused. Um,
Speaker 3 00:19:59 It's way more about the operator now than the actual manufacturer of the gear. I think you got it. Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:20:05 Yeah, yeah. It's, it's a pretty level playing field out there.
Speaker 0 00:20:10 You can't cover up your mistakes. Is that the kind of, or,
Speaker 3 00:20:14 Uh, no, it's, it's, uh, you know, the, um, there are certain consoles that are like industry standard broadcast consoles that just don't have the feature set to do these types of shows. Yeah. You know, they just, um, they're great consoles, but they just, they can't get you what you need. And so some of the lower end consoles actually do have those features or, um, some of the, most of the Yamaha consoles. And so, you know, there's that there, the shows are less pretentious. There's less room for potential weakness in these types of shows because of budgets like Dan said, or that's, what's already in the studio and you're just walking in using it and a lot of space yeah. And physical space. And what is the protocol that you're interfacing with? You know, a lot of the really popular broadcast councils don't have a way to do Dante, or they do, but it requires two other pieces of equipment or, or whatever.
Speaker 3 00:21:14 And the other aspect of it, there's been a lot of non audio equipment owners that either own a studio or a video equipment or media servers, and they've had to buy audio equipment to do their version of their studio. And guess what, they're probably not buying the Studer or the Cal rack there, you know, and they're probably not even getting the Yamaha, although if they're smart, they would, they're, they're probably getting like a, a DLI for something that's cheaper, but has all the features set there to accomplish close to what those others can. But I want my SSL, Pete, I need my SSL very Constable.
Speaker 2 00:21:56 So, so with, with the digital CA uh, consoles, all leveling the playing field, is there, is there a way to Bulletproof that virtual audio chain, is there, is there a way to make it a standard of sorts? No, I don't think so. Uh, because it's the same as, uh, as lighting consoles or as video switchers. Um, uh, it all depends on the production company, the client, the budget, um, that's all constantly shifting, but with the lighting console, I'm just outputting DMX and that, that never really changes it. You know, it might be digital DMX versus analog DMX, but, but at the end of the day, lighting console does the exact same thing, no matter how you package it. Right. Pretty much, uh, a good digital console is much the same. Uh, I mean, you know, you can, you can have digital or analog output and that's really the only change.
Speaker 2 00:23:02 Um, but the, the feature set noise stays pretty much the same, but, you know, I can't tell you how much, uh, just spaces, a bunch of these because of COVID protocols. Um, there are still departments, but they're, everybody's on a table. Um, separated, um, and physical space has been a huge, so like a big, you know, a big Yamaha console, a big, uh, Soundcraft a big DiGiCo aren't appropriate, uh, mainly because of physical space, a lot of times, because these shows are happening. Um, you're not in a ballroom for a week. Um, you're showing up at 6:00 AM and doing, uh, some calm checks and going through stuff and going live at 10 or doing rehearsals and coming back the timeframe everything's much more compressed. So the room for errors last, um, Andy, um, uh, and there's no, uh, you know, I saw when you guys talk about Bulletproof, it gets, there's no way to Bulletproof any of it. Um, you can just have the best gear, uh, the best equipment you possibly can and go through it, um, and go through your part of it and understand your part of it as best you can. Um, but, um, if, if there's a way to Bulletproof, we'd be, we'd be very wealthy. Well, I'm just wondering if there's an opportunity there that, that hasn't been addressed or, or somebody hasn't invented that mousetrap yet. Wow.
Speaker 3 00:24:37 The thing that Dan was getting at is that the, uh, now unlike a lighting console, you know, a LD can design a show handed to me and that Emmy or an assistant LD can execute that show almost exactly like the previous audio guys and audio design, and even in the virtual broadcast world is so specific to the person, but also the workflow of what you need to do to accomplish those signals and those routings for that show. And because it's the wild West, it's not like a, uh, a TV broadcast where you have one program output. I mean, you have as many outputs as you have presenters sometimes. I mean, I've done some above 30. And so you, that workflow is very different than if I have five presenters and, you know, Dan and I may completely set up our consoles completely different based around the same show and accomplish the exact same outcome.
Speaker 3 00:25:46 And so the standardization in terms of the workflow on the console is not, is, is not even close to your standard, like TV truck, you know, walk in and start throwing up faders it's much. And it's dependent on the facility. So everyone's approached it slightly different. Some people do IFB, some people don't, some people are doing laptops, some people are doing V mixes, like all of that matters to Dan and I and how we set up our concerts. Um, and then what console is it? Is it a <inaudible>? Okay, what are the limitations? If I have 20 mix minuses, I have to come up with in a 24 mix console that is very different workflow than if I have 12 mixes and I have 12 more available to do other things. So, you know, we, you know, every single job is designed around the functionality of, and this is why it's important.
Speaker 3 00:26:45 Like I'm more of a consultant now than an audio guy, because 90% of the success of the show comes in consulting the client and understanding what they're after creatively or by necessity, and then executing an audio plan, or are a holistically larger picture studio plan, because now all the signals are married together. Most of them. So, you know, it's more of that broadcast truck mentality of embedded SDI signals. HTMI with embedded audio video and audio signals over the internet that have to ship together. So they arrive in time together. You know, now Dan and I have to rely not just on our Dante technician or our, our patch master with, with, you know, the, the 56 channels snake. We have to rely on some sort of EIC person or it style person who is handling those in betters and handling those DMD betters. And, you know, audio guys treat their signaling with lots of care, way more care than almost all the other departments. And so, and because a signaling mistake usually ends up as a very loud mistake or a very silent mistake, but either way it's not good. And in some, in some instances, um, we can get fired over it. If that microphone signal goes to the wrong place at the wrong time, that is not, that is not a pretty scene. So we are very protective of that.
Speaker 0 00:28:16 So it's interesting. You mentioned mixes and DSP on a console. I mean, that follows a lot in line with video where it's like, when people call me and ask me about an E two and the capacity and how many pixels and how much outputs and, you know, can I, do you know, if I, if I cross over cards, what happens and what do I lose in resources? And how do I, I mean, so there's a lot more planning than you can't just throw a cl five at a show and say, Oh yeah, it'll be fine. Like, you know, I, I've got my, you know, my full back, I've got my down fill, I've got my front fill, I've got my outfit, I've got my main PA and that I got to monitor mixes and you're like, Oh, I got room for days. So now you're looking at mix minuses. How much DSP do I actually have? Am I maxing those things out? Um, that's a totally different, I hadn't even considered that idea within, cause I'm always thinking out it's console, just throw me, send the cl five. It'll be fine. Um, so if they are, we're working through all of this stuff, DSP, have you ever run out of DSP and had to be like, Oh, I need a sidecar console or stuff like that now with all the mixed minuses and everything else that you're running,
Speaker 3 00:29:26 Not doing broadcast, um, or virtual shows. Um, but definitely in, in, uh, uh, rock ships, uh, because you're using lots and lots of plugins and you can, uh, you can max
Speaker 2 00:29:42 Out, you can max out of console pretty easily on some of the larger rock shows. Um, but in terms of mixed minuses and even, uh, you know, 64 channels of Dougan, um, that's, that's easy to do, uh, without needing a sidecar. Um, now five years ago, um, I had, was doing shows where I wanted a lot of channels of Duke and mixing. Um, and it was only possible to get, I think, 30, uh, on a Yamaha or 32. Um, so if I had more mix, I had to do a sidecar, but even that's changing, um, uh, as, as consoles become more efficient at, at DSP, um, and manufacturers become more comfortable with, uh, with plugins slightly
Speaker 0 00:30:32 Unrelated question real quick. Why are audio consoles built in groups of eight idea? I just thought it like 1630, two 64, four.
Speaker 2 00:30:47 I'm sure it has to do with manufacturing of, of, uh, circuit boards and slots. Um, I don't, uh, because you know, there are some consoles now you can build strip by strip like 500 series. Um, so they don't have to be eight anymore, but that's an interesting question.
Speaker 3 00:31:06 Eight analog consoles were eight as well. And I think that's, you know, the like most analog consoles have eight groups. Yeah. Right.
Speaker 2 00:31:16 Writings and tens
Speaker 3 00:31:19 And tens or twelves,
Speaker 0 00:31:20 You guys are Imperial. So couldn't be intense. Cannot have as much as a lighting guy. We need to be. I mean, it's like, why audio guys don't count to three, then they don't have to lift, um,
Speaker 3 00:31:33 Jordan back to your last question for a second, you know, besides sometimes maxing out potentially on DSP or mixes or whatever, the more successful facilities that I've seen design the video, usually it's the video switcher. Cause that's the more like that's the, maybe the piece that's centralized or the audio console, but if those are in sync, then it's easier to expand that capability because you're like, okay, this video switcher can do so many inputs. And so many outputs, this audio council can do so many inputs and outputs. And if they're generally close, then it's, then you don't run into a problem where like the video switcher can do 48, you know, video ends and video returns, but the audio console can only do 20. So keeping those in sync is kind of important. And then the other thing other than the SP is actual person DSP running out of mixing, you know, I've done a few fair amount of shows where I've to have a second, a one on a, and then pick a console that I can have a second console connected to it controlling the same mine.
Speaker 3 00:32:48 And, um, because the there's enough analog mixing that has to be done in terms of like actual fingers, moving things, one person can't do them all, or maybe more than, you know, I don't know for you, Dan, for me, I can listen to about three things at the same time, including <inaudible> so four things, if you include calm after that, it gets a little weird. And so, you know, if, if it's like, you know, two laptop returns program out and some, uh, something else and then come like that, starting to like max the person out the operator. And so, you know, you have to apply that like 80% rule and say, okay, this particular job or workflow or whatever, may need a second mixer and may need, uh, an Intercom technician and may need a network technician to work with the Intercom technician. And because it's all again, it's all together now, you know?
Speaker 2 00:33:52 Okay. So go ahead, Dan. Oh, well you were asking what, one of the biggest mistakes there are. And I think for audio, it's not having a preview monitor, um, uh, in the past, uh, audio guy, you know, you see what's live, what's going on. That's what we mixed too. Um, and it's, it's critical now to see, um, who's, who's in, in the other off sites and if they're ready to go live. Um, uh, so I think the biggest mistake has been what I haven't when, uh, a vendor hasn't provided a preview, uh, so I can see all the different sites. Um, and, uh, cause you're, you're, you're, you're not mixing, you're mentioning the space. Um, so if you don't have an idea of, of who's adjusting the Mike, uh, you can't leave everything open, um, and you can't, you can't see them watching onstage. Uh, so that's, that's that's I think for audio that's been the biggest mistake I've seen is people that are providing the audio department with, with the proper video monitoring. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:35:04 And that's going to be important for, I mean, going forward completely, really, truly everybody is going to need multi views now. So if you're doing a multi-site hybrid, you're going to need to have not just what's going on at that moment, but if you're getting ready for the next, let's say you've got a hub and spoke where you've got five locations that are all linked together, you need to see what's going on at all five of those locations, because if you're ready to go live to number three, you're standing by, well, you don't want to wait until they switched to the guy to hope that it's there. You want to be able to see at least up, you know, like the output that may not be on screen in that room, but it's coming from the other place. And then you at least have the heads up. You're thinking, okay, now I know we're ready. I've got that line coming in, instead of all right. I sure hope they did their job. Right. You know, the fader up to nominal and then hoping that as soon as they take it live, it's there.
Speaker 3 00:35:55 And the same thing goes the other way. I mean, some of the EICs interface technicians, outbound, like some of them need PFL consoles or a way to scroll through their sources to hear that, you know, there is actually audio on that input, you know? So it definitely goes both ways. Huh.
Speaker 2 00:36:18 So, so as a lighting guy, I always am curious about the, the visuals and I want to make sure that those are good, um, for you give us your top three best practices for presenters who are doing virtual presentations from home, what are those things that they need to, to make it sound good and to give you everything you need on your end? Well, I think there's really only, I think the biggest single thing, and it's not an audio thing at all. It's a viewer preference, um, and a viewer engagement. And that is where the eyeline. Yes. Um, I've noticed between doing a bunch of these depending on the director, in their, um, knowledge of how to get a good eyeline, um, makes all the difference. It makes it makes you feel engaged or not. Um, and I think if a presenter is feeling engaged, um, and can see that, that they, they look engaged, they present better, stronger.
Speaker 2 00:37:28 Um, other, you know, other than that, um, obviously you don't want anybody speaking in a noisy space or a big echo-y space and you, you want them to observe good microphone, um, etiquette and good microphone technique. But for me, um, I see so many music videos, so many corporate presentations, so many zoom calls where the eyeline's wrong. Um, and that little differences is it kind of transcends audio, video, everything. It, it changes, uh, it changes it from looking to amateurish production to, Oh, wow, this is, this looks awesome. And it's, it's amazing because I've in the course of doing these, uh, really has changed how I will be looking at doing audio when we go back to live. Uh, just because we now understand that that we're teleprompters are, um, is, has really been wrong for a lot of live shows. Cause that's, it's creating the highlight that's wrong and not a lot of people get, so it's
Speaker 4 00:38:36 Not a valuable thing, but it's kinda my pet peeve.
Speaker 0 00:38:38 Hmm. So you have teleprompters are gonna have to go in the back of the room. Like we're going to be doing 80 sixes and 90 inch monitors back by a backseat and by cameras now. Good point. You going to say Pete?
Speaker 3 00:38:54 No, I, uh, absolutely with Dan. I mean, you know, we were talking about how important lighting is with these webcams too. And so, you know, but you know, the, the way they look as important, the presented the way they'll print presenters look is important, but people tend to tolerate the way, you know, bad visuals, more than bad audio. Like if the audio is bad, probably they're going to sign off or mute it or something. So, you know, there are those three things are very important. Audio framing, the shot with eyeline and the lighting, but you know, the audio, you know, is I got to put it a slightly above every yeah, exactly. People go to listen to the keynote, not watch, but no, the, um, the three things wired internet number one, absolutely absolutely sending wired internet. Um, and, um, along with that tech checks a couple of days in advance at the actual location and if the Internet's bad, then backup internet deploy, backup internet. Um, and then after that, uh, you know, quiet room as Dan said, um, and then, uh, you know, this goes with the, with the, the, the tech check day, but, you know, tech checks with the platform day of the show, if possible, you know? Yeah. I can't tell you how many tech checks day before the show two days before the show morning of something's completely different with the connection with, you know, this is, this is, let's be clear. This is specific to remote presenters, usually at their home, maybe at their office. Got
Speaker 0 00:40:39 It.
Speaker 4 00:40:42 I was watching the, uh, the Grammys the other day and I was shocked at how many times they went to, uh, somebody accepting, you know, their award and the audio is like the torture droid from return of the Jedi. I mean, it was just like,
Speaker 3 00:40:57 I suspect that that was probably a different problems than the internet.
Speaker 4 00:41:01 Yeah, it was, it was, uh, it was pretty painful to watch. And I can't imagine being in your guys' shoes, you know, having to watch that, you know, how do you, how do you deal with, with that and, and how do you work to make it better on your show? So that doesn't happen.
Speaker 3 00:41:20 It's all about testing. And just really, you know, I've done some shows with, uh, some pretty high end, um,
Speaker 0 00:41:32 Platforms or systems or
Speaker 3 00:41:34 Whatever. Um, an example of that might be like Claire VLA and, um, they have to be stress test. The clients have to have standards and the exact number of standards that you have on show day diet, you know, using the platform or using the system, because all of these things are CPU, CPU, you know, reliant and they're all computers. So it's, you know, the amount of CPU used for four people dialing in versus one is different. And that affects the way, you know, if we're using Dante, a chances are it's DVS, which is software it's relying on the CPU. So the computer sciences, as part of these virtual shows have people who understand that have been a little more, um, helpful in, you know, the, the bigger picture of having an event going on. Cause in that case, like the Grammys, maybe something wasn't stress test or load tested in terms of like the CPU and the system and you just never know. Um, so that would be my,
Speaker 2 00:42:46 And, and the client understanding what it takes to have the pipelines work at maximum bandwidth. Um, uh, you know, there's, there's different levels of zoom, um, and you, you pay for, for better quality for better bandwidth. And it goes with the propriety proprietary systems, um, with your internet connection with having an it guy on site, um, uh, is become critical. I mean, it's, it's it just sinking faster than, than anything. Um,
Speaker 3 00:43:21 And that's a positive coming out of this is, I mean, I, you know, Jordan, you saw on some of the stuff before COVID, um, we, I started doing this on really large events, but, you know, coming out of COVID, it's no longer an argument. There will be an it guy and either there'll be shared between audio and video, or if it's a big enough show, each department will have their own yeah. There's no way going forward where that's not going to happen. Like that, that will happen. They might be doing double duty. They might be the PA tech, you know, they might fly some PA and then go do networking. But like, you know, and depending on the size of the show, like I said, and so the twos that can do RF throw a couple of mikes on somebody and potentially, you know, for your medium to small size show, those guys are going to get a lot of work because those expertise is, or are going to be needed going into these venues and, you know, dialing in remote, you know, as we do these like weird hybrids. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:44:23 So then what, uh, glad you brought up positioning within virtual hybrid, all of that. Um, what are a couple of best practices or, or I guess, concepts that engineers should be looking at now going forward as we are, because it's not going away. I mean, there are, we've seen already that there are procurement people that, you know, especially in the fortune 500 fortune, 1000, and they're like, Holy mackerel, we saved a million dollars by not sending everybody to Bora Bora to do our, you know, whatever event that that was. Um, we love that that's perfect for the bottom line, we're staying virtual. Um, what do they need to be looking at practicing, reading up on knowing now so that they can deliver better virtual shows,
Speaker 2 00:45:15 Communication, uh, uh, they need to know and how know and figure out how they're going to communicate. Uh, I can't tell you how many shows they're spending a director in New York talents in San Francisco talent does their stuff. Then they take their notes from a zoom that they bring up for the presenter to read. Um, and that's, that's, that's got to change. Um, and I think companies across the board and figuring out that's a really bad way to be directing, to be, uh, trying to get a good product out there. Um, and, and I think across the board, even corporate wise, um, uh, inner calm, uh, is, is critical to, uh, because we are so remote, um, it's become the, the, the really the, the most important thing, um, other than, you know, all the different elements working for everybody to be able to communicate and communicate and close to real time is, is critical. So I think, uh, a lot of, uh, like AB department at Cisco or Apple or HP, um, they're discovering that, um, painfully, uh, as they go along. And I think that will, that that's going to change. I like to have stock and in clear, calm and RTS and writing real right now.
Speaker 0 00:46:45 What about you, Pete? What are, what are some, yeah,
Speaker 3 00:46:47 Intercom, Intercom, Intercom, and us as sound designers, you know, um, need to help, I think, consult our clients too, you know, like lighting guys and, you know, with the angle of the front lights, you know, Intercom. So like, let's talk about how we're going to communicate on their show. Is there an internet broadcast portion of it? Is there not, is there, you know, Dan at similar to like multiple ballroom shows where we've all done those, and even though the ballroom is across the hall, they want to talk to each other, you know, only now they're over the internet. So, but, um, double checking your work is a huge one. Um, like I said, you know, with these shows, things changed so much. So keeping organized, you know, live doc paperwork, Pat sheets, signal flow diagrams, because, you know, you might be, you know, that one video channel, you know, has to be tracked by audio, someone from video and usually an it person of some sort.
Speaker 3 00:47:48 And if there's two sites they're doubled up, so that's six people minimum, all need to have need to know that camera one is on SDI one and SDI one is carrying audio channels one through four or whatever. So all of that needs to be in a centralized location that everybody can, can look at. So paperwork. Um, and then because of the multiple sites trusting the team that you're working with, you know, either, um, hiring people that you trust, or if you don't know somebody getting the time leading up to the, the event to get to know them, and then to define if it's the first time you're working with somebody to define exactly what that workflow is going to look like. And, you know, that's signaling that's everything, you know, are you gonna give me post fader direct outputs? Are you going to get me pre fader?
Speaker 3 00:48:42 You know, are you going to give me a backup mix? Is that pack? What protocol transmission is that backup mix on? So, you know, those sorts of those sorts of things now two-way ones who, before very much, we're mixing two different shows are pretty much need to be exactly in sync mixing the same show now. And so, um, you know, all of that, and this goes back to pre production. Like we talked about a little while ago. I mean, it's, this is all about, you know, the pre-pro and, uh, the planning and you plan, not because that's what you're going to end up doing, but you plan so that when the changes come down the pike, you know exactly where to go with those changes, uh, because like these shows always changed during load and they are, there's always something being added or whatever.
Speaker 2 00:49:31 Sure. It's such a different world, you know, maybe five years ago you'd get handsome stuff off the video. Hey, here's my two record feeds. Here's your monitor fee here? I'll take the playback feeds, um, very little contact, uh, between the departments. Um, and I think that's, I think that's going to be a real plus going forward. I, um, I talk more, uh, with EICs, um, and if we're not on the same page, uh, going into it, um, then there's there's problems. So pre production and, um, and I think it's, it's, this has brought some really cool stuff out. Um, this whole COVID having to do stuff virtually it's brought some real skills forward, um, and made departments work closer than they, than they ever have, which, um, for a variety of variety of reasons we haven't done in the past or haven't done it very well.
Speaker 2 00:50:32 Um, and now it's essential. It's just, it's critical. I, I, 100% agree on the comm. Uh, you know, it's, it's always been a bugaboo on any show. If you're calm, doesn't work, the show doesn't work, you know, you end up, you end up failing nine times out of 10, if your calm is not working. Right. Um, and I, I'm, I'm really interested, uh, to see more about what, how systems like unity, um, that virtual, uh, calm and how they progress moving forward. Because I think that's going to make things like loading in a, um, a rock show for instance, way different, you know, rather than, you know, screaming into a, uh, pendant on your shoulder and being able to just talk like I'm doing right now and, and talk to your, your team and only have them dial into your system, um, is, is really a unique thing that I think, uh, I'm excited about moving forward. Um, since we discussed all that, what are the things that we don't know that we don't know for, for our future of doing video and in a virtual and hybrid world?
Speaker 2 00:51:49 The tough one? I think the thing we don't know is, is you were talking about standardization earlier, and I think someone is going to figure out a platform that is really compelling, that makes virtual work. Um, I know, uh, PRG, uh, Clair brothers, uh, uh, a bunch of people have come close to figuring out how to make interaction and the actual presentation compelling, but we're, it's still, it's still basically, uh, uh, uh, a glorified webcast or zoom call. And I think what we don't know is who's going to figure the piece of that puzzle out and what that's going to mean. Um, but no, I don't think anybody's figured it out yet. So that's what I don't know. And I'm, I'm, I'm, I can't wait cause, um, I would like to see really compelling product gaps and online content.
Speaker 0 00:52:51 Does that mean breaking it out of, I mean, are we talking VR AR
Speaker 2 00:52:58 I'm not sure. I think that may be parts of it. I don't, I don't know, but, but I know it's when somebody figures out what that compelling piece is, it's, it's, it, it will be a standard pretty fast. Yeah. Um, and there's a lot of people you're trying to try to figure it out. I just don't think we're anywhere near there. We're in the very early stages of figuring this out. And it's so hard because
Speaker 3 00:53:26 That compelling piece is getting together face to face. Yeah. Yeah. I've been drinks at the bar, shaking hands, hugging. I mean, like when you get on show site, what's the first thing you do, you go around and shake hands and hug all the, all your friends. Yeah. And I think that's the, that, you know, Dan you're right. Like that's the biggest piece that's missing is that getting together? And I don't know that any of the screen solutions can really replace that. Like avatars, you know, it's not right. Yeah. I don't know.
Speaker 4 00:54:01 Okay. So we talked about this actually in our, in our hybrid, uh, podcast last week. Um, there's, there's some compelling arguments or VR and VR goggles with Apple. They're diving in head first, Facebook is doing the same. Um, I think something is going to come out of that, that we're going to have to deal with on the backend, in the future for an event, whether it's a Facebook event, whether it's an Apple event, whether it's, you know, something where you're going to a general section, um, live or, or virtually, and they just set up, you know, different cameras around the room that you can pick your one that you're going to, that's gonna be your seat for the show, um, or going to a concert even. Um, I think there's a lot of, I think there's a lot of, uh, innovation that hasn't even been touched in this, in this, uh, COVID world. And I'm excited actually for the potential. Um, if, if it's done right, you know,
Speaker 3 00:55:04 Joe, back to your question, cause I didn't answer it. I mean, I brought something down when you asked it. No, I feel like this is really important. I'm really passionate about this. Um, what you, you know, your question was, what are the things you don't know that we don't know? Well, in order to not know it, in order to know that you didn't know it, you have to research, you have to look into it deeper. So like if, you know, we've all learned a lot in this past year, you know, new, we've all learned new stuff. And you know, for me the things that are new that I've learned, you know, I tested it over and over and over again, I played around it. You know, I asked, I guess don't, you know, stop asking questions. What happens if I do this? What happens if I do that?
Speaker 3 00:55:56 You know, it's kinda like the RF, you know, when I used to do our, you know, RF coordinating work, you know, what's the worst case scenario, cup, cup, the antenna, and walk it around the room. Well, you know, with some of these platforms and some of these internet things they're changing, sometimes they're changing firmware once a week or once a month, you might not do a show until they've turned changed firmware. So like assuming that things are going to be the same thing that they were weeks ago. Nope. Probably they're not. So test, test, test, try to break it, try to break it before it breaks in front of people. I don't know, you know, um,
Speaker 0 00:56:39 Unless it's a Microsoft computer and it updates unintentionally while it's sitting there case
Speaker 3 00:56:44 In point case in point,
Speaker 0 00:56:48 Gosh, I've been on Microsoft shows when Microsoft laptops that are, that are backups and live on screen, going to update mode, even when it's shut off. It's, it's insane. You walk out to the VP, that's on stage. He's like, why is there a blue screen? I'm like, dude, it, it, it did it. And it just happened. And there's nothing we can do about it. Cause everything's connected. So
Speaker 3 00:57:11 That can cause a snowball because someone who overthinks that problem might say, well, I need to install a widget, so to stop updates. But the reality is is you have to know the tool, your tools and our tools have changed their computers. Now you don't, you know, to prevent that you don't have to install a widget. I've seen those widgets break more PCs and they've helped, you know, um, because they, they stop other softwares from working as intended. And so, um, you know, like I, it goes back to that P that computer sciences kind of piece of it, you know, lighting, I think has probably been doing networking in a live event industries more than any other department. That'd probably video a little bit, but audio, you know, we've been doing networking for quite a while and you know, there's things like, uh, you know, if there's a turntable onstage that EMI that might interrupt the comms signal or might make noise come out of that one speaker, cause there's a digital signal going to it. You know, those are all learning experiences that we've learned over the course of 25, 30 years or whatever. And we've had to learn those same, that same quantity of stuff in a matter of days sometimes. Yeah. Um, and you know, so it's, that's how the year's been.
Speaker 0 00:58:33 Well, yeah, lots of learning. I know that, I mean, it feels like every day I walk out of the office and my brain is like, it's just weary from like all of the new things, the decisions that you have to make to like, what am I going to learn today? What do I have to absorb, grab on to hold on, to figure out that is beyond my, like, you know, in the world of live events, the way it was 12 months ago, it's like, okay, here we go. Lights, sound video. Maybe we add in a little bit of scenic, we got a little bit of special effects, but it all pretty much functions the same. I pile a bunch of gear in a semi. I go to the gig, we unload it, we set it up, we do a show, we'd go home
Speaker 3 00:59:13 Trim Heights and point locations. Like basically the only variable.
Speaker 0 00:59:17 Yeah. And, um, and now it it's like, okay, how did we connect to these people? Because today it's Chicago tomorrow, it's San Francisco the next day after that it's Portland or they're all coming today, we've got Seattle and LA and like all of these different parts. And then now hybrid, which we're going to add into this after, or as we grow, which is already really taking hold. Um, multiple locations, delayed broadcasts, um, you know, one point to many multiple locations all linked together in real time getting the same signal. Um, I mean, it really is just going to complicate it, um, for, for the sake of time as we're coming up on an hour here, I wanted to kind of wrap up with what are two things that, that I could do to have a better audio experience at my next virtual gig. The next one that I do, what are two things that I should be doing just as the, the con call me a video guy, if you want, what should I be doing from an audio standpoint that is going to make my event better? The next time
Speaker 2 01:00:31 Work on, continue to work and refiling, uh, preproduction. Um, that's making sure everybody knows what's expected where stuff's coming from, um, and the signal flow, uh, and what the backups are. Um, what's going to happen if this call doesn't go through knowing, uh, uh, you know, usually we, we test backups, uh, with our shows and now it's, uh, because they're, the sources are so much more important and so much we have less control up. It requires more preparation, more making sure that the bandwidth, that provider just preproduction, um, has become, it's hard to say it's become more essential, cause it's always been essential, but now it's critical. And if, uh, so that, I think that's the biggest thing and knowing, uh, and maybe, uh, making sure that you're on board with presenters, knowing what what's expected of them and helping them figure out how they can, um, uh, bring life into whatever you're doing.
Speaker 0 01:01:46 Got it.
Speaker 3 01:01:48 Yeah, for me, um, I would say, uh, rehearsals probably with the exact gear you're going to use and, um, you know, uh, there's so many variables with computer, like present or computers, whatever, take the internet out of the picture, but, you know, uh, hiring, um, stand-ins to connect to all those computers on your rehearsal day, you know, so many places, uh, they don't do rehearsals or they don't do a rehearsal day and it's, it's a tough facility. It worked last week, so it's going to work this week. You know, it, it might, but it also might not. And if you have different, um, oftentimes you might have different, uh, operators. And so that rehearsal is as much for the operators or the show caller or the producer as it is the equipment and the workflow of, you know, how that particular show is going to do go.
Speaker 3 01:02:50 And the same team might do two different shows and that workflow and who follows, who might be completely turned on its head, depending on, you know, the creative direction. And what's actually desired out of it. And then the willingness to say, you know, the consulting role, there's a nice way to say something's not gonna work. I mean, I've, I've had to say it overhead set, you know, that thing we wanted to try, you know what, I'm listening to it now, it's, it's not gonna work. You know, we could talk about why later, but we shouldn't, we actually shouldn't do that thing. So, so being able to being able to pivot, you know, um, uh, uh, with the client and, you know, Dan said, that goes back to the communication of, you know, Jordan, what are you? You know? And if you don't know, you know, I've seen so many people think they know audio, even audio guys sometimes, and they fall on their face because they haven't thought it through, or they haven't talked it through with another person, I guess talking it through with another person is pretty, you know, yeah. Important.
Speaker 0 01:04:00 And that's finding out the thing you don't know that you don't know, as you talk through something is, is don't miss things. And other people do, and finding a little bit of humility to understand that you don't know everything and I don't know everything. Um, but that together, we know way more than anyone than either of us will ever know, uh, in a lifetime, frankly. Um, uh, I would say that the humility through the whole thing is going to have to be a huge point that yes, we won't talk about it per se, but it's very important. You know, I have to understand that. I don't know it all, which is why I'm asking these questions. I'm saying Holy, like, Holy crap. I, when I think of audio, when it comes to the virtual side of things, my brain just starts to like melt. And it really does because there's so much more complication. It's not like a zoom where I can just dial in and we just talk and whatever. But to me, like you said earlier, the audio is so critical to how people receive what they see. That's why broadcast sounds good. Sounds the way that it does, um, is because audio is important, Joe.
Speaker 3 01:05:07 Yeah. And you, and you see what you hear, you know, if there's, if you're watching a band and the mandolin, isn't that loud in the mix, and you look at the mandolin or the
Speaker 4 01:05:18 Director
Speaker 0 01:05:19 Cuts to the mandolin, you will hear the mandolin. Even if the mixer did not turn up, turn it up because you, you want to hear what you see and you want to see what you hear. Yeah. That's very true. Now. That's a great, that's a very, very good point. Um, Joe final word. What are your thoughts, dude?
Speaker 4 01:05:38 Um, I, I go back to, uh, Dan's takeaway on communication. I think, I think coming out of this, um, we as event professionals are going to communicate better, um, because, because of this experience, because audio now needs to talk to video a little bit more, um, when we're doing a hybrid version, uh, lighting is definitely going to have to talk to video more because of, for camera. Um, and I, I think, I think the overall, um, positive out of all, this is going to be that, that the communication between departments is going to go up exponentially as we, as we roll into two live slash hybrid events.
Speaker 0 01:06:20 Yeah. That's awesome. Well, we'll keep communicating and guys, thanks for, so thanks so much. I know we went a little over today, but a really great discussion, learning a ton. Um, I mean the main theme, communication, talking to each other, telling each other exactly what we need, how we need it and how we can accomplish the tasks that we have at hand. So we'll keep talking, we'll keep doing things. And, uh, Pete, Dan, thanks for coming on. Really appreciate it. Your guys is knowledge. Uh, my, my really truly is fantastic. You guys know what you're doing. We love having professionals here that are great at what they do. So thank you so much. And, uh, Joe has always great questions. Thanks for jumping in asking them and, uh, keeping us on our toes. So guys, we thank you so much, Joe. Next week, let's talk, uh, let's do lighting. Um, I think it's a great topic to discuss and we'll have a lot of great things to go through. So next week we'll talk lighting for virtual events and then Pete and Dan can listen in and, and get better at making things look good.
Speaker 4 01:07:22 Let's hug it out. All right. Thanks guys. Hey, have a great day
Speaker 0 01:07:27 And we'll talk to you next time.
Speaker 4 01:07:29 Okay. Take care. See you. Bye.
Speaker 5 01:07:35 Wow. What a great day today. Can you believe that we can actually get better at what we do every single day? I love it. I'm so happy and so proud of the professionals and the group of people that I get to work with. Just like the two guys that you heard today. Listen, we'd love it. If you go share with your friends, tell them about gig, ready, let them know how we can help them become better professionals as well as make you a better operator each and every day. Have a great one. We'll see you next time. <inaudible>.
