Speaker 0 00:00:00 Hello, and welcome to today's podcast. So excited to have you here. Can't wait to get into the nitty gritty of everything that we're going to have going on today. Talking about the live event, audio visual world, whether you're touring, whether you're corporate, whether you're industrial, whether you're Broadway and theater, it doesn't matter where you are on the spectrum. We want to learn as much as we possibly can to become better professionals and better people. As we go forward in the audio visual world. This podcast is solely based on one principle value for value. I want to give value to you. We at gig ready want to give as much back to all of the professionals that we've worked with and those that we haven't worldwide as much as we can, because I believe that as we learn more about how other people work process and make progress in their lives and in their careers, you can do the same thing, tons of new information, tons of great stuff that we can put out.
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Speaker 1 00:02:01 <inaudible>
Speaker 0 00:02:17 Welcome again, to another episode of gig ready. We're excited today to have with us. Pete, why Jessica senior audio engineer at OSA international based in Chicago, Illinois, he is one of my good friends and colleagues that has worked in the industry for many, many years, doing rock and roll, doing corporate, doing all kinds of events all over the world. He is an outstanding engineer that knows exactly how the job has done as well as working for one of the premier audio vendor, audio providers in the United States, OSA international. We're excited to have him here, Pete, how are you doing today? And Jordan, thanks for having me on. Excellent. You feeling good today? Stepping in the basement. Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:03:02 Stuck in my basement. It's good. It's good. Uh, you know, I live in Chicago. It's uh, I think we're on week four or five of, uh, the stay at home order. So yeah. You know, yeah. Cooking some good meals.
Speaker 0 00:03:17 There you go. A little stir crazy probably. And uh, getting some house projects done. That's right. Awesome. Well, Hey, we wanted to talk about all things, audio vendor, uh, talking about engineering, talking about things that are looked for from a vendor and an engineer standpoint. So let's jump right in. Um, I think the biggest question to start off with is we're here looking at different parts of the live events industry is what do you see your role vendor and engineer coming into an event and, and creating that audio experience? Cause you've got the one you've got the producer, you've got the other team members of the audio. Uh, what do you see as your role chief role, I guess, as being an engineer within that world?
Speaker 2 00:04:09 So, um, there's a couple different aspects to that question. Um, the, the vendor role is largely to support, um, the department leadership in whatever department you're in. And so in my case, it's audio. Um, and so it's a little bit different from job to job. Um, I might, I might have a client that will hire a, uh, independent sound designer that we then work in CLA and collaborate with to come up with a plan around the producers, uh, guide, you know, um, guidelines. Uh, I have other clients where, uh, they call us for the complete package. They want the engineering, they want the designing. Um, and so the role is slightly different between the two, but generally speaking, uh, a gear vendor is there to, uh, to make sure that the systems are engineered and designed to provide the service that the client is looking for. Um, sometimes, uh, uh, well let me just say this. Another, uh, variable in the equation is budget. So we all like to design the rolls war, right? The rolls Royce, let me get that right. Rolls Royce. But, uh, you know, that's not always after everyone's best interest when, when it comes to budget.
Speaker 0 00:05:49 Sometimes, sometimes we need the Ford focus and not
Speaker 2 00:05:54 Sometimes we need the Ford focus. Yeah. So, uh, you know, that is always part of the discussion. I mean, there's some clients that are like, uh, there are some clients that will approach the project with, um, an open book and they want you to design the best product possible, see what that price is, and then come back from that. So that's, that's like the beginning stages of the, of the process, you know? Um, and at OSA, we, we are unique where, uh, we have sales departments, we have engineering departments and we, then we, you know, logistics departments and stuff, but at OSA, some of the engineers also sell. And so what that provides clients is a little bit of a, a different approach where that budget versus gear discussion is a little more efficient. Yeah. Um, there's, uh, other people work that way too. Um, but I find that that's sort of, it's something that is desired and engineers that, um, have trouble working with the budgets, uh, have trouble kind of continuing in the industry because, uh, you know, it's all connected.
Speaker 0 00:07:16 Yeah. We all have to be flexible. Semper Gumby is many of my, or our colleagues has said many a day. All right, guys, here we go. We're going to shoe horn. This one in there. Um, whether it's budget, room size, uh, band stage size, I mean any number of, of ways to look at that. But when we look at a project, so that's the start, that's how you're going to approach a project. How, how, how do you manage a project from start to finish? We talked to Kelly Apperson the other day about audio engineering from an one standpoint, he's the outside guy coming in. He comes to OSA. He says, Hey, my client has this thousand person meeting. We're doing it at McCormick place hall, a we're excited. We want to make this the best 5.1 surround sound system that has ever existed in the face of the planet. They come, he says, Pete, what do we need to do? How are you approaching that project? And then managing that from start to finish.
Speaker 2 00:08:18 So from the start, what we would do is have some initial discussions of, um, like in that example, you just described Kelly would be acting as kind of a, a sound designer and department head, right? So we would, we would work with Kelly to design a system or said, engineer designer to design a system that will provide the final product that the clients are looking for. Because in the end we should, it's both of our clients, like Kelly's not the vendor's client, you know, the, and the end client are, you know, everyone's working for those folks as a team. And that's the way that I, I look at it and that's the way that, that, you know, most folks should probably look at it because it's holistic. It's, it's, it's, it's all in one. Right. So after, after the design phase, um, we'll put some gear lists together.
Speaker 2 00:09:19 That's a, that's a big part of it. Um, choosing the equipment that's available. Um, if it's equipment that we know we need and don't have available, then, um, there's some logistics involved with, with sourcing that. And, uh, you know, that's, that's another aspect that, um, I think has been changing lately, as, you know, every vendor tries to sell what they were, let me rephrase every vendor tries to use what they own, but, uh, sometimes you need a very specific piece for a very specific job. And then you know, that, uh, you'll, you'll, uh, define what that is and then, um, and then source it. So after that's done, uh, budgets get created with the sales teams, if you have them or for you or you, and, um, and, uh, those discussions will be had maybe a redesign, um, a very important aspect to the designing is making sure that you, as the audio designer slash of vendor engineer have communicated with every other department in the show, um, you know, first and foremost, a technical director or production manager to make sure that they're in the loop, they can give some wide guidelines of the venue that you may not know.
Speaker 2 00:10:51 And then they can also put you in touch with, uh, the leads of all the other departments, whether it be the video department led, um, lighting, scenic automation, you name it, um, logistics sometimes on big jobs. So, um, and then the technical director, technical director is always in place overseeing those communications to make sure that the right people are talking. So, um, the design phase oftentimes goes on for a while. And while after, uh, we've been awarded the job because of various, um, physical assets specs, um, of the show design that may impact where we can put speakers or our equipment areas, whether it be backstage or front of house. Yeah. Um, you know, uh, yeah. Also rigging sometimes reading parameters change or are realized a little bit later in the game. So we know
Speaker 0 00:11:58 I only hang a thousand pounds from this point, guys, we can't go 14 deep with the MLS. Uh,
Speaker 2 00:12:06 Yeah, absolutely. And, and that, uh, the audio department is one of the departments that hang a lot of weight. And so, um, you know, we're audio guys, but we also know a lot about rigging because of the kind of weight that we're hanging. Um, okay. Led led walls are heavy too, but, but PA is generally the heaviest thing in the room.
Speaker 0 00:12:32 No, I'm, especially from a point, you know, from, from a space to space, to weight ratio, you know, we might be hanging in 30,000 pounds of lighting across 20 points, but you've got a PA that's gonna weigh 2000 pounds and you're hanging it on two points that are, you know, four feet apart, if you will. And I mean, that's certainly something that has to be communicated with. Uh, we were talking to John Featherstone, uh, a little while ago and he was discussing the, I talking about how communicating between lighting, audio, making sure like lights aren't in the way of the PA and PA aren't in the way of the lights. And so ultimately during this timeframe, you're going through, you're looking at Vectorworks, you're looking at the CAD, you're looking at where is things placed in space is stuff in the way, you know, Kelly's confirming, all right, positioning is good. We're pointing in the right direction. And then from there, uh, refine, I assume, refining gear lists to get ready to, you know, pull and prep a job at that point, once it's been approved and
Speaker 2 00:13:32 It's, it's, it's a communications job. Um, it really, um, one of the main components of it is being able to communicate well. Um, especially, especially through conflict, like, you know, we're all professionals in generally act professional, but every now and then we run into somebody who might be a little more difficult to work with. And in those cases you have to, um, understand that it's, you're all working towards the same call. And if you can navigate these types of challenges, then, um, you can get the results that the producers looking for, which is why we're all doing it in the first place. And, um, also develop a nice working relationship. Um, like in this case, you know, with John, we do a fair amount of shows with John every year and it's, it's, um, we look out for each other, we look out for each other a lot, like, Hey, this thing is in front of your PA or Hey, that light is blowing right at the back of a delay screen, or, you know, we just, and that's part of it too, is just the teams people. Um, and the general vocabulary throughout the industry is, um, is something that holds us together and binds us. I, I can work with somebody, I can work with somebody new, uh, whether it be an audio guy or, or an LD or a technical director in the language is, is largely all the same. And, um, and that, that goes along with
Speaker 0 00:15:21 Awesome. So how do you stay organized through this whole process? What kind of software, uh, things, what are you using that you guys, you know, inventory software design, SOC CAD design, software, different, what kind of things are you guys using through the process?
Speaker 2 00:15:37 So it usually starts with, um, we do a fair amount of line diagrams and these change a lot and that they stay rather basic. Sometimes we get complicated with them visually, but generally speaking from a system design point of view line diagrams are, are, are a good place to start. Um, especially when you're talking with, uh, with a couple of different folks in your department to come up with a plan, for instance, um, on a larger show, you wouldn't want to segregate the Intercom system from the networking system. They might be able to work together. So, um, as a team, these line diagrams will show those types of inefficiencies and, um, you know, more graphically represent how we want to let the, let the, how we want to design, uh, the system.
Speaker 0 00:16:39 That makes sense. What are, what are you putting the line diagrams in? What are you using to create those?
Speaker 2 00:16:44 Um, either Vizio, I use Vizio a lot, um, Vizio or, uh, um, you're going to edit this, um, Omni graph.
Speaker 0 00:16:58 Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 00:17:00 So we would use Vizio or Omni graph. Um, those are kind of the two main programs. Uh, you could use Vectorworks or AutoCAD, but these are kind of more basic kind of make a block, put some text in it and draw a line, gather the line, you know, you can put images of gear in like, if it's for a client, but, um, the, you know, even on a simpler job, I'll start with that because if I hand that job off to somebody, or if I hire somebody to install the job, then they can look at that document and understand the intent of the equipment that is being provided. That's, that's actually one challenge. I know I'm getting off topic a little bit. That's one challenge is oftentimes the crew hired, um, doesn't always understand the intent of the equipment that was ordered. Yeah. And, um, that comes down to the lack of communication from the project manager at the vendor, and then the crew that was hired.
Speaker 2 00:18:09 And so, um, all this kind of paperwork we're talking about helps to mitigate any of that confusion on site and, and that perception to the client goes a long way. Yeah. So line diagrams, uh, spreadsheets with, um, you know, Pat sheets, we call them, um, uh, these are all ways that we can keep organized with the crew and with the plan. I mean, we might design a job in October, but, and then talk about it from October until April, but execute the job in April. Well, if we don't talk for a month Jordan, like if, if you hire me for a job, or if we're working together on a job, we might talk at the beginning and then we might go two months before talking again, and I need to be able to remember, Oh, why was this piece of equipment on the, on the list or, or, um, you know, what are the capabilities of the sound system when somebody asks,
Speaker 0 00:19:10 Okay, makes sense. So Vizio, Omni graph, Excel, uh, of course vector works. I mean, we are all working in factories.
Speaker 2 00:19:19 Yeah. AutoCAD is another one. Um, AutoCAD and Vectorworks are the two drafting programs that are prominent. I think there's two, one or two others, but, um, I would say that, uh, 10 years ago, 75% of the industry used AutoCAD and 25% of the industry used Vectorworks. Um, now I think it's reversed. Um, I think most, if not all industry folks are drafting and in vector works. Um, there's still a few folks still using auto CAD. It's, it's, AutoCAD's a little bit easier to use if you're passing drawings passed back and forth with a structural engineer or with a venue. Like I find a lot of rigging rig, uh, production rigors. I find a lot of production rigors that use AutoCAD versus vector works. But for our industry, for the AAV industry, Vectorworks holds, um, an amazing tool set that is dedicated to our industry. Um, yeah, a hundred percent called the spot it's called spotlight. And it, uh, I mean, I can draft up a, uh, a small show within a matter of a couple hours from scratch. And that's like, you know, all like every department. Yeah. Um,
Speaker 0 00:20:41 What is OSA using for inventory management? What, what, uh, so from,
Speaker 2 00:20:48 So after we come up with, with our, our line diagram and our major components of the system, um, and, and the PA system on the drawing, then, then we'll work in conjunction with an inventory program such as flax or, um, our, to, to, you know, uh, make sure the gears available per our design. Now I, you know, um, I will look at availability of the equipment while I'm designing, because it has a huge impact and I want the best product for the client. So if, um, I designed the entire thing with, uh, with one speaker, one speaker a let's say, um, and then I go in and start ordering it and I realize it's not available. So now I need to use speaker B I'll, speaker B might be heavier. It might be bigger. It might be smaller. I might need more of them. And, and I might lay out the room completely different depending on, on what what's available. Now that that's that's, if I'm designing it, if a sound designers is designing it, then it's a little bit, um, it's a little bit of a different story where fallibility, we're concerned less with availability and more with providing what specs now most sound designers will design within the vendor's inventory, but if you're bidding on a job and the spec is broad, then, um, it's a little bit of a different story.
Speaker 0 00:22:20 Makes sense. So is, is OSA a flex or are to which w what, what
Speaker 2 00:22:27 We're currently using flex at the moment. Okay.
Speaker 0 00:22:29 Does it drive you bananas? Just like it does me,
Speaker 2 00:22:32 We, we, um, we develop custom work around that pretty fast to put gear in. Oh, that's good. Yeah. Currently it's flash-based, which means it's kind of slow. Um, but, uh, you know, there's a way there there's ways around being able to, um, for instance, you know, I want to look at all the speakers that are available in a particular location. OSA has three locations. Um, and if I'm doing a job out of Nashville and I'm not sure what I want to use for a PA, I want to be able to click on something that shows me the availability of every speaker in Nashville. Okay. And so there's, there's tools like that, because if it's not a dry rental or not, uh, not a bid to spec situation, then, you know, I'm opened up to be able to design with the best thing we have available.
Speaker 0 00:23:32 Yeah. So do you, do you use a lot of like pre done shows or like remembering, Oh, I did this show that's similar enough to the last time and then go and basically create a copy. And then, you know, you have a amount of stuff that's already laid out in, in a situation like that, where all you're doing is changing amounts and things of that nature to, to minimize your time and flex
Speaker 3 00:23:55 Sometimes yes. Copy and paste. Um, but, uh, you know, as the years go on and pricing or packaging changes, then that kind of stuff gets skewed. So of course, um, you know, I might, I might design up a system as the designer and then give it to somebody who's learning at the company and have them kind of do the heavy lifting in the program so that I can move on to, uh, you know, the job on site that I'm doing or on to another job.
Speaker 0 00:24:29 That makes sense. So what do you guys use? So you've picked your PA or roughly what it is now, of course, during that whole timeframe, you know, you guys are predominantly at Martin house and so using Martin now, what does that program that Martin has that allows you to look at here's coverage? This is what it's going to look like. This is what our estimated SPL at seat a and C, D and C Y is going to be when you're looking at the room, laid out like that
Speaker 3 00:24:57 Martin soft prediction software is called, um, display. And I use this program right at the get go when I'm designing the, the, the job, um, just to make sure that what I'm thinking of designing will work in the room. Um, the program also tells me how heavy the array is, so that I can accurately give, um, somebody on the team, uh, the way the accurate weights of the system, rather than saying, Oh yeah, that cluster of six is, you know, 800 pounds. I can look in the program and tell you it's actually 750 pounds. Well, in some situations, 50 pounds makes a difference, especially if there's a few of those, they had it up. Yeah. So, um, I do it that way. Um, you know, uh, so I'll use, I'll use display, I'll make sure that the arrays that I'm thinking of putting in, um, are under the weight capacity or weight limit of the points in the room, and then I'll see how far it'll cover or, you know, how, you know, how far into the image, it's it, it is, or the set or what, or how far into the lighting system it is, and then adjust from there and, um, you know, work my way from upstage to downstage in, you know, over the audience here.
Speaker 3 00:26:25 Um, if, uh, but every loudspeaker company comp, every loudspeaker manufacturer has a prediction software. So whether it be ELA, acoustics, or Meyer, um, JVL, everyone's got a piece of software. Each one has its pluses and minuses, but they all show with their products will do in the real world. So you can use that as a guide. So using that software as a guide, as well as experience of what a particular speaker will actually do coverage wise, or SPL wise, um, you know, brings us to, you know, the finalization of a, of a PA design.
Speaker 0 00:27:07 Yeah. And I would say in my opinion, at least any professional that is not using that type of a software solution is really handicapping themselves to not being able to produce the optimal result in any given location. I mean, I've done, uh, you know, I was, Vertech trained for a while back in the day. I mean, you know, we're talking a really long time ago at this point. Um, but learning, you know, the Excel program when they had it at that time, but being able to look at that, I mean, that was huge, you know, cause I mean, one degree, two degrees in between a box change could affect the, I mean the entire liner I'm going all the way down.
Speaker 3 00:27:47 Absolutely. And in the world that we're in, in the corporate business meeting world gain before feedback is a huge factor in PA design. Um, and so, um, that and exciting the room. So, uh, if you can get the clarity as clear as possible for every member in the, in the audience, um, you know, that's, that's the goal and every little parameter in those clusters matters, you know, some, uh, some systems will do optimizations, um, Mark, the Martin software and the Martin systems, uh, DNB systems, they apply, uh, digital processing to each driver or each cabinet to, um, allow the system to perform better where your audience is actually seated or, um, actually allow you to prevent audio from reflecting against objects like walls or delay screens. Um, so that technology coupled with physical PA design, um, is what we do, what most, all professional sound designers use and implement to, uh, achieve what they want out of a system. Um,
Speaker 0 00:29:17 Perfect sense. So you've got the system you've got to design, you've got to create it. Everything's ready to go contracts, go out, contracts, get signed. All right. It's time to get guys on the hook to do this job. You, as the vendor are responsible for, let's say, you know, there are going to be a, this is a Forman crew. You've got a comms guy and RF guy. You've a two guy or girl. This of course is a non-gender specific at this point. But, uh, the person to fill that position, uh, you've got a systems engineer and then you've got like a utility audio person when you're looking to select those individuals. What are the qualities that you're looking for? There's a lot of audio guys out there. There are audio guys that are great in the rock and roll industry. There are guys that are great in the corporate. Like what are you looking for as a vendor when you say, all right, I'm picking guys, my usual guys aren't available. I've got to find someone that I know is capable of doing the job. Who, what kind of person are you looking for to fill those roles aside from the fact that yes, they have to know what they're doing. I get that, that, that is a prerequisite, but the mentality, the mindset, the way that people interact, what are you looking for?
Speaker 3 00:30:39 So a good crew is a team. And so one of the main elements is somebody that works well with others, uh, communicates well with others. And generally speaking can kind of work work. Um, Hm. Works effectively efficient works effectively. Yeah. Um, as a group and, uh, you know, uh, there's some factors in that, um, pride in what they do is one of them, um, honesty. Um, the honesty part is important. Um, our jobs in the, in the live event world are competitive and if something goes wrong, we need to know what, what went, what went wrong quickly so that we can re either rectify it or make sure it doesn't happen again. Um, our clients need to, you know, they have to answer to their clients as to what went wrong, if it affected a show or rehearsal. So we, when we get approached, we need to be able to provide an answer that, um, is, is confident but honest so that, um, there's a consistency of a path forward of how to rectify that issue.
Speaker 3 00:32:17 I mean, we all know things are gonna happen. Things are gonna fail. Um, but being honest about, you know, what happened, it goes a long way. Um, the other part of the honesty is being honest with your skillset. So somebody who has a REM resume that says they've done everything. I, um, read through it. I look past that because, um, I don't believe it usually. Uh, and oftentimes it's not oftentimes, uh, it's a stretch. Um, I saw a resume one time. Uh, the person claimed to have done, um, mixing monitors for all these huge bands. And, uh, we used them on something and it turns out he just, he patched the stage on those tours. And, um, you know, this is an example of, uh, something that, uh, we, uh, as an organization are very careful with. So, um, we'll, we'll, uh, review the resume.
Speaker 3 00:33:28 We'll do a phone interview, a phone interview, and then we'll do another smaller inner interview with the person when we're actually ready to hire them for a job. And usually that's the that's, uh, the project lead for that job to make sure that it's somebody that they're looking for. So me, when I'm putting a crew together and I say, I need a comms person. Um, but the RF person is being provided by the client. Then I'll consider who that RF person is, and then choose a comms person that either gets along with them or their abilities blend well with them. So let's say that, let's say, um, you have an RF person that don't quite know how to do comm or don't quite know how to, how to put a microphone on a person, but they know frequencies very, very well. Um, well, I need to make sure I pair somebody with that person that can do the things they don't know how to do. Yeah. So that also means that I can find an a, to, to put Mike's on presenters that doesn't know why are of coordinating or vice versa. So there's not a straight answer. It's, it's, uh, it all, it depends on the ebb and flow of who's available. Who's already hired by the client and, you know, quite frankly who works well together, um,
Speaker 0 00:35:03 Interpersonal relationships are huge, of course, as we, uh, as we both know things that, and people that butt heads, uh, never cause a show to feel like it's supposed to feel, which is nice and smooth, simple, straightforward. Um, and then of course, you know, a lot of times in those instances, everybody's trying to pass the buck to somebody else. If there's someone who's not good at getting along with somebody else. Oh, well it was his fault. No, it was his fault. No, it was his fault. And then you look right at it and be like, dude, just for, can take responsibility for your screw up and let's move on because that's all we got
Speaker 3 00:35:40 And that's all that matters. And most of the time you never even look past that one conversation about it. Yeah. You know, um, if it continues to happen, then it's like, okay, this person, there's something up and we need to look at it. Yeah. Generally speaking, we just want to know that something happened and this is why, and now we know what not to do, or we, you know, know what failed and we move on. Um, but you know, you bring up a good point with, um, with it. So, you know, I might be on a job with only two positions out of this whole list. And so if I know it's, you know, but the job may only call for an 82, but if I know that there's only one in one audio position backstage, and that's an 82, I need to make sure that that person knows Intercom.
Speaker 3 00:36:39 I need to make sure that that person knows how to, how to safely rig and fly the PA system. I need to make sure that that person knows how to handle and talk to stay. Chan's particularly if it's a union house, union stagehands are great, but, um, they need, uh, Allstate Chan's need clear communication and direction. Yep. And, um, you know, that all it, it, so if it's one position backstage, I need someone who's multifaceted and all those things, as opposed to a job that's larger, where if there's four or five people backstage, I can find someone who specialized in one specific place. But I always like to try to have some overlap because you know, recent events with the, with the, with the pandemic, um, we might be on, on, hopefully, hopefully fingers crossed we're on events soon with crews. And when we're on these events sooner or later, somebody's going to get sick. Maybe it's just a normal cold, maybe it's not. But, um, we all hope that doesn't happen. But when it does happen, we want to make sure that we can cover that person's position on the job site. Yeah. Either loosely or even shared across two or three other people, to make sure that the show can go on in a, in a matter that the client
Speaker 0 00:38:12 Cross training, as you bring up a good point cross, training's going to be critical, um, in the longterm and stuff like that. And the, and the communication ability. I mean, you know, a lot of times back in the day, people felt like, Oh, well I know this, this is my job security, but now we're, we're not going to be talking job security. We're gonna be talking gig security. Like the gig needs to be ready and secure. So if something does happen to somebody, you know, we can still Mike presenters, that might be the TD jumping in and Mike in that presenter because the <inaudible> was not able to, for whatever reason, uh, that might mean, uh, the, the video guy having to move over and, and switch the switcher and do playback because something else happened. We were going to have to think about those things and think through all of those scenarios now, uh, to be more prepared.
Speaker 3 00:39:05 Absolutely. So
Speaker 0 00:39:09 We're picking a great crew. We've got all that stuff. You're getting ready to travel to the gig because we travel all the time. Uh, what are the things that you're taking with you? What are you traveling with when you're headed to the gig? Uh, you know, you're headed to Las Vegas or to, you know, Anaheim or Orlando to do a show. What are the things you're taking with you? What are you in your house like, Oh man, I gotta make sure I have this. And I have this and I have this, um, as I go,
Speaker 3 00:39:38 Uh, so most folks in the industry have some sort of personal kit tool kit. Maybe it's a bag. Maybe it's a large Pelican. Maybe it's a couple pelicans. Maybe it's a rolling work box in these kits. We try to bring things that we know we'll need most of the time. Um, you know, it might be a network tester. It might be your favorite microphone. It might be an audio interface or, um, or a, a laser measuring tape. Um, in my toolbox, if, if I know I'm the Awan, I have a toolbox that, um, I carry all of my computer playback equipment in. I cover some, I carry some spare parts. I carry, you know, um, uh, various odds and ends that, you know, we always provide for every show, but every now and then you might have something break or you might use them all and need one more of those things.
Speaker 3 00:40:47 Those are the types of things that, you know, mission critical things that I trust that I have to have your box of get out of jail free cards. Correct. Um, a lot of guys in the audio department, a lot of guys carry a cab driver. Um, and it's a device that you can plug a speaker directly into on the other end of a cable. Uh, oftentimes we're, we're wiring speaker cables onto trust systems and catwalk systems and grids that we install well before we put the speaker up or well, before we have our backstage Amper echolocation. So we want to be able to test that cable to that speaker. Well, before we're actually ready to make sound through the system. So a cab driver will send signal down, um, and then all four cable or an XLR cable to an end point. And so you can have somebody at the other end to verify that that circuit works and that speaker is functioning,
Speaker 0 00:41:51 But speaker cables never break. Pete,
Speaker 3 00:41:53 Never, you know, off, I don't care if you test it a million times before you install it, you know, you put it on the trust and if it's pulled in just the right way, or if a lift runs over it or name your thing. Um, so we all, and, and on these, on these industrial corporate shows, we do install time is planned out very carefully. And, um, and so on some of these jobs where we only have a few hours to put a big system in these types of things matter, because now we don't have to go back and try to fix it in a lift or have somebody dangerously climate trust or repel in, or, you know, troubleshooting these larger systems or even a medium-sized system can take hours sometimes. Yeah. Costing, costing the client over time.
Speaker 0 00:42:51 Totally. Yeah. A hundred dollars, a hundred dollars tester box can save you thousands of dollars of time of people messing around trying to fix stuff. So embarrassment and embarrassment. Yes. Well said. So what are then? So you have your work box, you got that kind of stuff. What are the three things that you cannot do a show without? And it can be anything, any, anything at all? It doesn't matter. It doesn't have to be tools. It doesn't have to be my little Pelican. What are three things that Pete can not do a show without?
Speaker 3 00:43:20 So I always bring, I have a ballroom jacket. And the only time I used this garment is when I'm in ballrooms, particularly in Las Vegas or Orlando, but it is a black with a collar zip up kind of, it's actually a bicycle, a bicycle clean jacket that has, uh, cuffs that fold down over, over your hands. Cause some of these ballrooms are quite cold and you're sitting in the dark for a long time. Um, and it looks professional and it's black. Um, the other thing I'll oftentimes bring if the job is over a week long is a AeroPress coffee maker. Um, most of us that have been on the road for a while, have some sort of caffeinated mechanism yes. That we like to bring, I know, triggered in you, you like to bring your Nespresso, right.
Speaker 0 00:44:12 That's right. That's right. Every, every time almost I'll carry it on the plane. I'll, I'll, I'll run by the shop specifically to get the Nespresso case to take with me if I don't have it in my car
Speaker 3 00:44:25 And actually this, this brings up a good, a good, um, a good point, uh, with the caffeine. Oftentimes we're working 12 to 16 hour days and, um, we need to do that safely. And no matter the department that you're in, um, having the stamina to be able to work a long day like that without getting upset without, um, uh, getting angry because you have blow low blood sugar, um, you know, uh, without trying to rush, to get to the bar because you have one more thing to do, but to safely do it, you have to wait for a rigor to come back from dinner. These are all, these are all things that patients, you know, these are all attributes that are, um, sometimes more important than actual technical ability in the crew that we choose. Yeah. Um, sometimes you can balance that out with two different people. You get one person that's really smart and you get one person that's really patient and, and you, you know, you can balance the skills out. Um, but, uh, you know, the caffeine is something that keeps many of us happier while we're walking these long. Well, while we're working these long hours.
Speaker 0 00:45:48 Got it. So two things, so coffee, awesome. Warm jacket, number three,
Speaker 3 00:45:54 Number three. Uh, I'm going to have to say, um, my trusted computer playback and, uh, audio system measurement accused acoustical measurement rig. Um, can't really do a show without it, whether it be audio playback, uh, audio recording, PA system tuning, uh, you know, you have to have the audio interface, you have to have the, the measurement microphone and you have to have a computer with some sort of audio measurement software on it to, to, to correctly do a audio system engineering position. Whether that be, whether that be, uh, you know, um, uh, PA technician or if you're mixing a one or, um, just the audio engineer, if you're just the PA person and your responsibility is just to put up the speakers and the amplifiers, you want to still carry these tools because maybe the person mixing doesn't have them and they really need you to do it. So now you have to provide that service on the spot and not having these tools, um, or having these tools is a as a, as a benefit to, um, your client and to the team that you work with
Speaker 0 00:47:14 A hundred percent. So what you have your gear, you have all your stuff, you get to the gig. What's the toughest gig you've ever done, toughest job. Like you think back all of them. And you think, man, I don't know if I ever would want to do that job again, if you had to that one job.
Speaker 3 00:47:31 Um, that's a good question. Uh, I think of a couple and, uh, while I'm talking, I'm gonna decide if I'm going to name them, but, uh, they both have one thing in common and that is, uh, mismanaged expectations. So the most mismanaged expectation is, um, one of which the someone above you in the hierarchy holds, but they haven't communicated to you. So it might be the sound designer. It might be the, a one, it might be the TD, it might be the client. It might be, um, the teamster unloading your truck. Uh, but you know, it, there's somebody in the chain that has an expectation that they haven't correctly communicated it. Now, most times there's a general understanding of the expectations of your role within a team on a job. However, uh, sometimes these expectations shift or, uh, there might be special, um, there might be a special need or something.
Speaker 3 00:49:00 And, uh, if they're not communicated correctly, then that can create some, uh, some issues on site. Um, you know, it can create, uh, anger amongst departments. It can create, uh, impatience. Um, it can create a feeling that, uh, the team isn't solidified isn't cohesive. Um, and then there's expectations that go the other way. Uh, um, let's say it's the third PA person on a, on an eight person audio crew. And they have an expectation that they're only going to work eight hours a day because we're working in the city that they're from and they want to go visit family after working every day. But on this job, maybe there's not a, maybe there's not a schedule yet or something. So they just think that they're going to be getting out early every day. Well, um, if they haven't communicated that expectation or re or need or desire, let's call it with the people above them that maybe one day they have something they need to do, then it can create an issue on site when a request is made of them that they need to stay later. I mean, it's generally understood that, um, when we're hired for a day's worth of work in the event that you're hired for the entire day and maybe the next, maybe through to the next, but, but, you know, it's, it's all about open communication. Um, and, and I would say all of the negative experiences that I've had on site have all attributed to bad communication of one sort or another
Speaker 0 00:50:53 Yeah. TD says, well, guys, I thought you could have this up in three hours, you know, and you just find that out when you walk in and you're into hour five with, you know, this giant PA system that is still not off the ground yet. And, uh, I could totally understand, not wanting to end up having to go back to do ones like do jobs like that again, that that's never fun. Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:51:15 And the end of the day, I believe that everybody wants to do the best they can do. I believe at the end of the day, everyone wants to feel good about that. And while we may not always feel amazing, there's a level of pride that you want to do the best you can for your client. And it comes down to the expectation setting. Now, again, there's basic expectations. Are you going to show up at the time that you're told to show up, um, is the equipment going to function correctly? Is all the equipment there, um, you know, are all the stage hands there that you've ordered? Can they actually stage hand, do they know stage craft? You know, these are general expectations that are assumed of these particular individuals, but how many stage hand, hand crews have we had where, um, maybe not everyone is used to, uh, stage craft skills, maybe, uh, maybe the, the, um, the local labor company that is filling the stage hand calls, miss communicates that they can't actually provide everybody that is being requested. So these are when you know, these very basic things really affect everyone's job down the line and potentially the client's labor budget.
Speaker 0 00:52:48 Yeah, totally. So what's your favorite part about, you know, working, being an audio vendor, being the, um, being, you know, the engineer, you designing the systems, working with the gear, managing all that stuff. What, what do you like the most about it? You've been doing it for a while. Um, and it seems like you really enjoy doing it
Speaker 3 00:53:08 For me. It's the challenge. Um, I, um, like many of us in the industry, uh, I started in the music, you know, I started playing, uh, an instrument early on when I was young and, you know, that gave way to doing sound for concerts. And then that gave away to touring on a bus with a band. And, um, I got bored of that to tell you the truth, the traveling was good, but we were traveling so often every day, let me let that go every day. Um, you changing cities or changing countries, it's just a big blur. So after a while, um, I got tired of the lack of challenge. It was challenging in other ways, but not, not in the ways that I needed to be challenged. So, uh, providing equipment, designing shows, coming up with plans, coming up with, um, line drug law line diagrams, spreadsheets.
Speaker 3 00:54:15 Um, it allows me to do the gym, my job to the best of my ability by planning, but it, but it also, uh, challenges me when, um, there's a, uh, technical restraint on what we're trying to do. And it allows me to have time now to research and to really engineer through the challenge. Whereas if you're touring and you load in and there's something wrong in the morning, um, you have to band-aid that challenge just to get through the day. You're probably not going to work through it unless it's a significant enough issue. Um, makes sense. You know, whether that be scheduling, I mean, you know, these days, the thing, the things that are, uh, parameters that I always ask is, uh, schedule, um, what room what's the venue? Uh, what are the elements, the creative elements of the show. I may not need to know all the details, but I need to know if there's a band.
Speaker 3 00:55:21 I kind of need to know roughly how many, uh, presenters there are. Um, uh, and then after that, uh, it's scheduled, you know, I said schedule after that. It's, um, you know, if there's, uh, if there's any budget constraints, what are the budget constraints? Is there a range we need to hit and then judging on the speed of how quickly we need to get the system in and, um, judging on the size of the system and the quality of, uh, the end product, then we'll go to choose a crew and gear to fit all those parameters. Yeah. Because every show is not the same.
Speaker 0 00:56:05 That's right. It certainly can be complicated. So coming into being a vendor, let's say we've got a freelancer stagehand, somebody who, you know, they've done some freelance audio stuff, they've done a little bit of breakouts. They've done, you know, smattering here and there, knowing how to mix audio, things like that, but not really like understanding how to like hone audio as a craft. And they, they now say, you know what? I think the best thing for me to do is go and work for an audio vendor that really knows their stuff. What are you looking for in someone who would want to come and like, want to work full time for an OSA, or, you know, a high quality audio vendor, and they want to learn, like they want to start the they're like, okay, I'll start in the warehouse. All, whatever it takes to learn as much as I can. What kind of person are you looking for to fill those kinds of roles?
Speaker 3 00:57:06 So when someone comes to me and they, um, are dabbling in audio, they know, um, a little bit about everything they're just getting started off. Maybe they're a musician. Maybe they've been in theater. Maybe the last thing they did was, um, something in high school. Uh, I, um, will have a conversation with them to judge, uh, their level of competence and then have a discussion on what their expectations are. And then also provide some expectation of how long the process can take. And, um, I gotta tell you, I've seen a couple guys, a couple of people, women, and guys come up through our organization, um, and they're really doing well. And it really just comes down to, like you just said, willing to learn, willing to ask questions. Um, you know, our industry is sometimes people in our industry are sometimes closed off and unwilling to answer questions, but there's always somebody around.
Speaker 3 00:58:14 If, if you don't get the answer, you like ask somebody else. And if you get the same answer, then that's the answer. But, um, you know, there's tons of different ways to skin a cat in our industry. You could ask five audio guys with the best microphone is for something and you're going to get five different answers. And so, um, what I always tell people is, you know, find a couple, you know, folks that you can work with that know more than you. And, um, learn from them, learn from two or three or four different people. Don't, don't listen to just one person's perspective or one person's way of doing something because, um, in the end there is no real right answer. Now there's technically correct answers with certain things, but the kinds of things I'm talking about, um, there's usually a few different, uh, answers and or, or processes let's say, um, like, do you get to this process?
Speaker 3 00:59:23 How do you get to this answer? What's your process. Um, and, uh, if you have the willing to learn willingness to learn, willing to put your head down and do the grunt work, um, you know, you might work in a warehouse and coil theater, or, you know, you might be the person that has to take that box of cable and empty it, and it's all muddy and you might have to take it in the parking lot and clean it with a hose and water for two days. You know, we've all had to put in our time and do that. I mean, it's, it's just, it's it, you know, you could go to school for audio engineering, but you still have to put in the soft skill. Um, you still have to put in the time to learn the soft skills in our industry because, uh, a you have to know how to do it.
Speaker 3 01:00:13 You have to respect it. Um, you have to know every process of an audio system. Um, because if you're going to ask a stage hand to run that cable or put that mic stand together or uncased that thing, you need to understand how difficult it is, or you need to understand what the process is of doing it so that you can make sure that that stage hands has someone with them or that you can manage their time. Maybe they're taking too long, maybe they're maybe they're rushing. And because they're rushing, they're not being safe, they're not working safely to those around them. And it's your job to slow them down. Um, you know, I can't tell you how many times on, on strikes I have to slow stage hands down sometimes, or your, or truck loaders, because they're just moving too fast. And, um, you know, if somebody gets hurt, it's, it's, it's everybody's responsibility and I'm representing a gear vendor that responsibility lands a little more heavily on you because, uh, you're responsible for that piece of equipment. So if that piece of equipment gets pushed or thrown across the room, and it's wheeling really fast on a attended, and it hits somebody, you know, your name, your company's name is on that box. So, um, you know, and we just, no one wants to see someone get hurt. We've all, we've all experienced it either ourselves or we've experienced watching it with somebody else. And, um, you know, it's nice.
Speaker 0 01:02:00 That's a good point though. You brought up with, uh, like, uh, gear being taken care of. I mean, if you're going to go work for a vendor, um, knowing that eventually someday as you progress through that company, if you want to grow, you're going to be on site by yourself being the only person representing that company and have to understand that there will be responsibility involved in that. And I, and, and, and I think that it's a good point that people don't think about that. Sometimes people don't think about the fact that there will be risk. There's going to be responsibility, and we have to be willing to be able to take up that responsibility as someone working for a vendor or being part of a vendor, because we get the benefits of being a part of a great team, being part of a good group of people that know what they know how to do something very, very well. But then we also have to take on the responsibility of having, um, having the good gear, having the equipment, having the right stuff and knowing how to operate it, um, and being willing to learn. Uh, and I think one other thing that I would add to that is somebody who's willing to be wrong when they don't know something or when they haven't properly learned it and say, you know what? I don't know, but teach me how to do what you want me to do.
Speaker 3 01:03:17 And that's a huge aspect to it. Uh, Jordan, um, and, you know, it's, it, it comes down to asking the question and if you generally genuinely, don't not know, and you're being asked to execute a task you need to ask, um, you know, and if somebody doesn't know, ask the next person, um, because, uh, there's a safety component. We're, we're putting weight over people's heads. So, um, you know, I recently worked with a stagehand that didn't know how to use a shackle. And, uh, for those of you that don't know, shackles connect the rigging pieces together, and it's a basic device, but this person had never seen one before. And, um, so as a supervisor, you need to be cognizant of the ability of the crew and, and be observing these things as stuff is being set up. If, I mean, I've seen electricians plug something in and not twist it to lock it.
Speaker 3 01:04:27 We oftentimes have connectors that you twist to lock, and that's a danger. Um, I've, I've oftentimes seen venue electricians, um, power on an electrical service before the cable is plugged in. On the other side, the cam locks are plugged in these, these are all things that are basic safety guidelines, but, um, either stagehands are, they just don't know, or they're maybe a little cocky with their abilities and think that everybody around around them also know are also at the same skill level as them. We have to understand that not maybe not everybody is on the same skill level, and therefore we have to watch out the person that is the least skilled in the task that we're doing. So if we're hanging speakers and I see a, I see somebody who doesn't quite know how to do it, or they're not comfortable, I'll pull them off of that task to go do something that they are comfortable with doing or ask them to step aside and, um, and have somebody else step in. Um,
Speaker 0 01:05:44 And being willing to being willing to just say, I don't know. I mean, in this day and age, nobody knows everything. There's too much information, too much stuff. And it's okay to say, I don't know, but if you're not willing to learn after that, I don't know that to me is when I have a problem is like somebody says, Oh, well, I don't know. And I'm just never going to pick figure that out. Well, that's not somebody I want on my team. I want somebody on my team that says, you know what? I don't know that, but help me understand it so that I can next time, not have to tell you, I don't know.
Speaker 3 01:06:21 And it comes down to the practice too. So if, if, uh, someone who's new asks me how to do something, I show them and they do three of those in a row and it's perfect. And then they don't do that thing for another year. I mean, I do it, you know, I might not touch one particular piece of equipment for a year or two. And then if I don't have time to prep it or set it up in the shop, I may have to like, you know, call a colleague and ask them a refresher on, you know, how to log into the thing. Or, you know, I needed to do this very specific task that I know this person had done it before. And I had never done, you know, use that piece of a gear in that fashion. I'm going to call that person because it's all about the collective knowledge of the team.
Speaker 3 01:07:13 And, um, you're right. The gear is getting more and more complicated and each person uses the piece of gear. Each person uses gears in a slightly different manner. So there might be something with that piece of equipment that I've never used a function or a feature, but somebody else uses it every day, but it's a feature that might work for me in this particular situation. Um, you're, you're absolutely right. I mean, I still ask questions every day. I mean, it comes down to even asking people outside of your department questions sometimes. Um, and that that's, sometimes that's hard, like asking a producer, what kind of audience we're going to have or asking a TD if meal breaks are on the clock or off the clock, you know, all these things that are kind of taboo questions, but are significant in the day to day of putting event on that's. Right.
Speaker 0 01:08:17 So we're putting events on all over the country. Let's say last question here, before we wrap up our technician, they just did a gig today or yesterday, and they've got a gig tomorrow. What are two things that they could do between now and then to get more ready? What are two things that they sh that you could say, all right, if you consider these two things or work on these two things, your gig tomorrow will most likely be better than the one that was today.
Speaker 3 01:08:49 That's an interesting question. Um, and something that I think changes for me, um, the one thing I try to, um, not do is have too many, uh, back-to-back events. Uh, oftentimes we cannot control our schedule or control all of this, but, um, I find that if I do too many back-to-back events that progressively the clients down the line get potentially less service, and I'm not talking ones twos or threes like fives and sixes right back to back. And so, um, because you can pretty well plan, you know, a couple three, maybe four jobs in a row previously, this starting the first job. And so the more that you can do that, the better off you are in the end. So the, so the things, the things that I try to do is, um, I, as an audio guy, I will, if the, if the show is recorded, I'll, I'll review the recordings.
Speaker 3 01:10:03 Um, if I'm mixing, um, if I am ordering the gear, I will, um, look at what worked and went didn't as far as a design point of view. And then look at my other shows to see if I'm doing those same things or not. Um, from a gear quality point of view, I I'll be, um, I'll be making a list of equipment that we had, uh, either issues with or that, um, maybe it needs to be looked at in the shop for a QC and make sure that that equipment is being gone through by either myself when I get back or, uh, um, a repair technician to, to make sure that when I get that same piece of equipment again, next week, that I'm not going to have that same problem with, and it might be as simple as a broken latch on a case.
Speaker 3 01:10:54 Um, uh, and then from a budget point of view, um, you know, I'll look at what we estimated for the client and then where we ended up and then make sure that, um, when I'm estimating is accurate, um, you know, not too far over, not too far under. And, um, and, and, and though that is one aspect of that, as you move throughout the year can kind of change people get tired, so they work less. So if I'm looking at a schedule that's 10 days of 18 hour days, I'm not going to get the same productivity out of myself, even on day one, as I am on day or on day 10 as I am on day one, I, it just, it's the simple factor human. We get tired after that big days. Um, and then, you know, from a paperwork point of view, the line diagrams, the patch sheets, um, you know, the more that the crew knows going into it, meaning before they even land in the city, that the show is in the better off we are.
Speaker 3 01:12:09 So, um, uh, getting that technical paperwork out to the crew, having a departmental conference call, perhaps. So if I'm on a show on a back to Mac, I'm back to back, I might take an hour during a lunch break, have someone bring me lunch, or go get lunch and bring it back and have a quick, you know, powwow with the next team to make sure that that's the one thing that I would say that a lot of people do, not that a lot of people make the mistake of doing when they're doing back-to-back shows is they plan the first show really well. And then the second show is they've lost all interest. And the only excuse is always that they are too busy. They were on a show last week, and then they flew home, did laundry, and then they went straight to the next show.
Speaker 3 01:13:06 To me, there's no excuse with the technology that we have. You know, I might be late with getting information to the crew, but I try really hard for them to have some information before they take off in their hometown. And at the very least, by the time they land in whatever town city that we're in, um, you know, some jobs, don't, some jobs don't produce the information. We need to put all this paperwork together in a timely fashion, but we generally have a good idea of what we're doing, because we've put an equipment list together. We've put a budget together. There's probably a drawing of the job. There's probably some sort of schedule, even if it's the first couple of days, even if it's just the first day, and then you figure out the rest of the week. So, you know, there's always something to share with the crew, even if it's minimal.
Speaker 3 01:14:05 And I find that that goes a long way. It goes a long way for the expectations of the we're back to that, that word expectation. And it goes, it goes a long way because I can't think of anything. So if I show my crew that I've hired, I'm providing a service to my clients, the crew I've hired, or the crew that I'm using within OSA, we're providing a service to each other. And so when I present what we're doing, somebody may have a better idea than me. Somebody may think of a question that I haven't thought of, or I haven't just asked. I have I forgotten about, and I haven't asked yet. So, um, you know, more brains and more brains that are, and more eyes that are looking and thinking about it usually come up with better ideas,
Speaker 0 01:14:56 Allowing for more collaboration than, you know, maybe even what was done on the previous job or, you know, and then reviewing. So review collaborate, review collaborate, because ultimately that is incrementally going to help each job get better. Because as the saying goes, we're only as good as our last gig. And so that's the Prague. That's the progression. I love it. Well, awesome. Pete will, Hey, thank you so much for a great conversation. I had a great time. I really enjoyed it. Great. Getting your perspective, uh, learning more about the audio world, OSA, what you guys are doing. Uh, and I really appreciate you taking the time to chat and listen and talk and tell us about all the stuff that you do.
Speaker 3 01:15:42 Thanks a lot, Jordan. Thanks for having me on. Yeah,
Speaker 0 01:15:44 Man. No worries, Pete. Thanks so much. Have a great day. We'll talk to you soon.
Speaker 3 01:15:47 You too, man. Stay in touch.
Speaker 0 01:15:49 Thanks so much for taking the time to listen today. I know that as a professional each and every one of us want to be better tomorrow than we were today. That's why we created the gig ready podcast. This is a place where professionals can come and look at what they're doing. Look at how they're doing it and get better. Every single day. We are solely value for value. We're not going to take corporate interests. We're not going to take sponsorship money. We want you to get better solely because that's what you want. So please give us some feedback. I want to get better. I want to create better podcasts. I want to create better events, just like you do. So if you have some value, you want to give back ideas, thoughts, questions, even, even the ability to be a little critical at times. I would love to hear from you. Thank you so much. I hope you have a great day. Stay safe out there and stay. Get ready.
Speaker 3 01:16:44 <inaudible>.
