Episode 29 - Lights! Nope, something else entirely

Speaker 1 00:00:02 Good afternoon, everybody episode 29 gig ready podcast. We're excited. Jordan Goodfellow here to talk about all things, lighting virtual hybrid, broadcast, how things have changed in the last 12 months, what differences we're going to see over the next 12 months. And we're really excited to talk about it today. But first, before we dive into this, just remember tell people about what we're doing, let them know about gig, ready, how you can become a better professional now and not tomorrow. And secondly, give us a quick, like drop a five stars for us because I mean, Joe knows how awesome we are. And so you do too. We love it. We thank you so much for being here and now we're really excited because this is the get ready podcast. Speaker 2 00:00:49 <inaudible> Speaker 1 00:01:05 Oh yeah. We're here today. Gig ready? Episode 29. Excited to talk about lighting. We've got some of the best lighting designers that I know here in the studio, virtually talking with us, Joe Mack. First off, how you doing, buddy? Good to see ya. Thanks for being here today. Right now. They're good week out. Started Speaker 0 00:01:26 Starting to hear the phone ring. So that's good. Speaker 1 00:01:28 It is good. I'm excited about it. Paul Efren, John Featherstone guys. Thanks for so much for coming in today. Really appreciate it. Thanks for being here. Speaker 0 00:01:38 Uh, thanks for having us Jordan. I always said you had a voice for radio mate, and you continue to just go, you drop into this kind of radio personality mode that just slays me. I think it's completely brilliant. And thank you for doing this. And that makes a huge difference to a lot of people. I know a lot of people that listen and get a lot of good advice from you. So thanks for doing this Speaker 1 00:01:56 Well, it's really your advice. They're listening to John. You're the smart guy here. Speaker 0 00:01:59 So then in that case, they're totally scripted. Speaker 1 00:02:04 And then also another guest that hasn't been here before. Paul Efren. Thank you for being here, sir. We appreciate it. Um, lighting designer, extraordinary. And today we're going to talk about virtual broadcast, uh, virtual events. People are doing so much stuff from home. They're doing things that geesh 12, 13 months ago. I don't know if we ever, what, what was a ring light? I didn't know until, you know, a year ago. So we're learning and learning time and time again. So I think the best place to start, we've moved out of the ballroom or at least we had, um, we've moved into different studio spaces. We've moved into home, but we're definitely not in hotels. We're not in theaters. We're not in places of large gathering. So how has this changed the way that lighting works for the events that we are doing? Um, and, and what does it look like now that it didn't look like before? Speaker 3 00:03:01 Who wants to go first? Paul, why don't you go ahead and take that? Let's start with Paul. Speaker 4 00:03:08 So, uh, it goes without saying that, you know, the, the, the way this went down was quickly. Some of us saw it coming a couple of weeks in advance. Um, some of us were blindsided. I speak for, you know, many of us, but the, the whole idea of virtual events really seem to shut out lighting in the very beginning. Uh, it seemed that I was seeing more and more people, uh, getting involved in those events in stage manager and producer positions, where they were doing it from home and for 30 days solid. And you're like, who's lighting it. And it's like, nobody's lighting it. Uh, as it started to progress, then there was more of a need to bring in people like us to start to make things look better. And, um, a lot of that has been, what I've been experiencing is more studio pre shooting of a lot of things or things that are being shot in studios, uh, either to be presented as something live later or directly out of the studio. Speaker 4 00:04:03 So, you know, the, the effect is obviously you're not having those meetings that you would normally be having. The protocol has affected everything because of it. Right. And, and, you know, dealing with people that are either wanted to accept it for one thing. And also just adapting to things very fast. I mean, I think that's what we've all had to do is adapt and evolve our skillsets. So all of it, I mean, from my standpoint, uh, it, hasn't been a really hard adjustment for me. You go on in your light. It it's, I think it's more of, um, that transition from, I mean, let me, let me back up. Most of us here, uh, from doing live events are lighting things, both for a live and a broadcast audience. Um, and what I've learned from lighting in studios is you have challenges and forgiveness from doing that. Speaker 4 00:05:00 In other words, if you don't have a live audience, there's a whole lot of stuff. All of a sudden you don't really have to worry about, you know, if, you know, uh, whatever counts is what's in the shot, you can have a light five feet off the ground, just over the camera. You know, these are things that we're, we're not necessarily, we don't have the luxury of that and alive yeah. Corporate environment or in an arena or in a ballroom. So, you know, there's a lot of that. It's been a really interesting experience for me because I picked up new skills. Uh, I've seen, like I say, how forgiving somethings can be and how challenging they can be at the same time shadows that were never a problem in the corporate world. Um, even in a well lit broadcast situation or a huge issue inside a TV studio, or, you know, any kind of, uh, studio type situation. Speaker 4 00:05:53 And it's all very individual. Um, now I don't know if I really strayed too far off of this. I mean, what, what do we really need to know going forward? I think we need to know that virtual events are here to stay. Um, are we going to have a lot of events again? Hell yeah. They're coming back and they're coming back fast. I I'm, I'm no soothsayer here, but I'm going to say that by the end of the year, we're going to be doing some live events, but the virtual stuff is not going to go away if nothing else, because it can be very cost-efficient on so many levels, uh, you know, travel, you know, as John brought that up in other conversations that we've had and, you know, travel accommodations, uh, all of those costs that are associated with doing the live events, having said that we're social animals and yes, they're coming back, but the virtual world is not going away. And it's a huge opportunity for us to expand our horizons and, uh, experience. And I personally liked doing them, you know, to me, it's just another, another Avenue to do, use your skills, Speaker 3 00:06:56 Do that to that point too. They, uh, it also expands your reach to your customers. Um, you know, if, if, um, uh, somebody who has to go to several meetings in a week, maybe I can't travel to your event, but I'm, I would attend virtually. And so that, that makes your, your consumer, uh, outreach just that much bigger and better. Speaker 4 00:07:19 Yeah, no, I, I think, like I said, I think it's here to stay it's how's it gonna evolve? I mean, I, I also share or feel the same about COVID compliance, right? It's that's the new industry out there. Right. Uh, and I don't necessarily think, and I could be wrong that when this pandemic is over, that that industry is going away, I could totally see a health screening going on for crews and casts and talent. If nothing else, just to stay ahead of any kind of infectious disease problem that could turn into a pandemic going down the line. Uh, I don't think it has to be as strict as it is now, but I could see there not being a re I don't see any reason why crews shouldn't be screening in advance before they go onsite. I think there's going to be all kinds of protocols as to how many people you want to have in a room working together, if it's not necessary. Right. And that that's going to affect our production schedules, which I think could be a good thing for all of us. Yeah. Speaker 3 00:08:16 Do you think that would speed up production slow down? I mean, what do you mean? Speaker 4 00:08:19 I think, well, here, here's where I'm going with this is, I don't know how many times you've had a producer tell you, well, do you really need that? Pre-req and if you're going to pre-reg, then we want to bring audio in that day too. And we want to bring, so now we're looking at a situation where I don't have to have that fight necessarily with a producer anymore. As a matter of fact, I generally don't care if there's other production teams working on the same day as my pre-reg, um, not at all, but it's when they, you know, jam the whole floor fully full of gear. That's now on your way, really doesn't need to be there yet because they wanted to save on rental on the venue for a day. Right? Yeah. So now what I'm seeing potentially happening and I'm seeing it happening actually is, okay, no, we're going to dedicate this day for this department and they're going to come in and do their thing in the order that we normally do things, just give him the whole day, you know, some of our clients are going to have to pay for that. Speaker 4 00:09:14 It's okay. In my mind, it's okay. You know, uh, and that's, that's what I'm, you know, that's what I'm talking about, right. Is it now, will that stretch out the amount of production time? Sure. We used to do that in the old days too. We used to have much longer production schedule, time to do what we needed to do. It was only when people really started to look at those margins and look at it, how they can save money and, you know, saving money and being efficient is obviously very important. And it's a, it's a mantra with us, but at the same token, we've seen that go in my opinion too far, where you're really trying to do too much in one day, and you're pushing the envelope of, of both safety and the quality of what you're doing, you know, and this, this gives us an opportunity. I wouldn't say it gives us an excuse to have more time, but it makes sense to, it just makes sense, especially till we're out of the woods, Speaker 1 00:10:11 For sure. John, how's, it changed for you? I mean, you know, being light switch at a global company that does stuff all over the world, what has kind of adjusted in your guys' world? Speaker 5 00:10:23 Well, I mean, first of all, there's, there's, I think there's a fundamental philosophical thing, which is really interesting to think about. And Jordan, you and I have spoken about this before is as you know, I hate the word virtual, because I think if we're doing a virtual event, we failed because there's nothing virtual about a good event. Yeah. Um, I think there's a million miles between a virtual event and a remote experience. I'm not remotely interested in doing a virtual event. You know, just the dictionary definition of virtual is a facsimile, a copy, a surrogate, a stand in, we're all about creating remote experiences. And everybody's got awfully hot under the collar in the last year about, Oh, this is all new, and this is all new, and this is all new. And really fundamentally it isn't. If we're trying to create a remote experience, cave paintings or remote experience of going on a hunt, the biggest remote experience mankind has ever created was more than 50 years ago when a man landed on the moon and a quarter of the planet watched an experience that they couldn't be at. Speaker 5 00:11:28 So for us, what we've done is we've stepped back and rather than get getting involved with this sort of hyperventilating about virtual, we've tried to focus on what does the remote experience look like? And we've kind of divided our teams into, into two streams. One stream is focusing on XR and we've got a very robust presence in XR. We have an XR stage in partnership with a couple of collaborators in, we just worked on the, uh, on a big project for Walmart or doing an onsite XR. That's kind of like a discipline in and of itself that has a whole bunch of lighting and production challenges that we can talk about in a minute. They are, the group has focused on trying to create remarkable remote experiences and that's everything from, um, productions in, uh, corporations facilities to concerts, to frankly, a number of business meetings without audiences that we've done. Speaker 5 00:12:26 And to Paul's point, it gives you a ton of attitude in terms of what you can do, but creating something compelling where you look at it and you go, all right, that was a thing that it, wasn't just a bunch of four guys talking on zoom for remarkably handsome guys. Now I say, but something, that's got some, some gravitas to it and some kind of emotional arc. And, and, and I think as production professionals, we can either get sucked into the vortex of, of panic and reaction with our clients, or we can try and help be an advocate for them and pull them back out and ask some fundamental stories, which haven't changed one iota who you try to talk to. What are you trying to say? What's your story? And what the, what do you want people to think and feel when they're viewing your experience? Speaker 5 00:13:14 And I think if we are hopefully going to get back by the end of this year or the beginning of next to live experiences, re remaining true to those fundamentals is really important. We're all storytellers. That's why we all got into this. Paul, I spent many a moment talking to you about storytelling. You know, your, your storytelling is in your blood. It's what you do the same thing with you, Joe Mack and Jordan. I I've been on show side with you more times than I can count. And the shows that I think you remember in the shows I remember is when we were telling a really clear story. So aside from all the tech, I think we have to be advocates for our clients' best interests and say, calm down, nose, breathe a little, this is all going to be okay, what are you trying to say? What's your story then? How can we use our skillset to help you communicate that? Whether it's an XR, whether it's remote experience, how, how do you tell your message in a way that is effective for your audience and, and effective for your staff too? So Speaker 4 00:14:12 They pile on there a little bit and say, John, I think it's really important, what you just said, that the difference between virtual and remote experience, and it's actually something that, um, cause I, I'm kind of in the same vein about how I feel about virtual in general, and it is the remote experiences, the deal, and also the quality of what you're doing, you know, the quality of what we did live. Uh, sometimes it's compromised because of expectations or, or, or what is what we're asked to do that conflicts with our artistic Tori storytelling, but the virtual scene now. And I haven't done a whole lot of virtual stuff, frankly. It's not something that I'm all that interested in, but remote storytelling or remote experience, I think that's such a much better way to describe what we do and what we want to do moving forward. Speaker 5 00:15:07 Well, I think we can all sink our teeth into a bit and go, all right. So virtual basically is what's the cheapest most cost effective way. We can do a zoom call, which I don't know about you guys. I don't hear anybody ever go zoom calls say, it's there like the pro pack where I can do like zoom calls where I sort of when I sleep, but you talk to somebody about watching something like, um, uh, I don't know if you guys, if you guys saw the, uh, the, um, any of the recent award shows the, you know, BME spring to mind as Grammys rather than so the Grammys as, as a really interesting take on a remote experience, that looks a little, like, I don't know if you're familiar with the Juul Holland show from the UK with this whole notion of performance, enjoying each other's experience and giving a sense of audience and, and what I think was great. Speaker 5 00:15:56 And, and there's been a lot of debate about it online and that a lot. So I can a lot not to like, but what you can't get away with is say, what, how can we create a compelling in room experience that we then send out to the world? And I think whether you're dealing with a dashing handsome, young lighting designer in his studio with his surfboard collection behind him and, you know, and, and, and, and those kinds of things, you're still creating a sense of that. But you know what I mean, that's not just not just generic. It says, you know, looking at Joe Mack, it says something about Joe mechanism person. It gets a sense of personality to that in the same way. As I, as I think with, with, um, the Grammys, they got, they tried to get a sense of each artist and do something that wasn't virtual and generic, but it was specific to the brand and ethos of each of those artists. Speaker 5 00:16:44 And I think to just pull a little from those playbooks and go, all right, so I'm dealing with a corporate executive, a marketing person, uh, uh, a concert performer playing acoustic, whatever, what's the personality, how can I give the viewer a sense of that? And I think natural lighting in room lighting that is then captured for video is actually a really interesting way to think about doing that. Obviously super easy to swipe a ring light around a lens, and you get something that's as flat as a pancake, but it's not terribly interesting and it's not terribly natural and it's not really engaging. So just to pull the conversation back to lighting a bit, I think there's tons of opportunities for us to lean into our storytelling abilities as lighting designers and go, right. How, how do we make this look interesting? How do we make it look natural? How do we make it look like in the room and to Paul's point about having the opportunity to put fixtures in places that we might not otherwise be able to do them? How, how can we create something interesting playing with color and angle and tone and texture in ways that we might not be able to, when we're dealing with a room with a thousand, 2,010,000 people in it? I think, I think there's, there's ways to find interest there in the way we communicate visually. Speaker 4 00:18:01 It's fun. I think different, you know, I mean, if it's different, because like you said, John, uh, the zoom call thing is boring. I mean, it's just, that is so much to me is just, uh, it's a task thing, like a task light, like, uh, you know, it's, it's, it's a tool that these companies are using and have to use it. Doesn't give us a lot of, of latitude to do what you're describing. Right. I I've been fortunate, you know, over the last year I haven't worked much, but the jobs that I have worked at really allowed me a lot more creativity than 90% of the corporate clients that I have. And they've all been new clients and they've been appreciative and they've wanted to do what you're talking about is, is a live or a remote experience. Um, yeah, Speaker 3 00:18:45 One of the things I'm, I'm finding most compelling, actually in the remote experience because of the pandemic, we were given a lot more control of the environment that was being shot. Um, if you look at the presidential inauguration, um, you know, the, the lighting was stunning. They did a beautiful job. We're never going to see that again, never, never in our lifetime, will we ever see that again? Because they were able to control the amount of people, the, the amount of light that was on the mall. Um, you know, and, and they had 100% control of the space, just like we would in a ballroom or in a, in a theater. Um, so I, I thought that was very, very compelling, but the one thing I'm seeing is the challenges for stuff like XR and how, how the LA thing doesn't always look the way it should, or it, it really not reading the way they're anticipating on your standard television at home. Um, so what, what do you guys think are some of the biggest mistakes that you're seeing for lighting and remote events? Speaker 5 00:19:53 I mean, the thing that I do is, is, you know, I, I was very fortunate. I, I sort of grew up in the business with, uh, with a really accomplished songwriter kind of as, as, as my mentor. And, and one thing that was really apparent was that very few accomplished, um, producers listened to the final mix of their show only on high-end studio monitors. I remember sitting in the car with my friend, listening to it in the car, cause he's like, you've got a shitty stereo in your car. I'm like, thanks God. And he's like, no, no, no. I want to listen to it in your car because I want to hear what it sounds like in your car. Um, so I tend to look to try and monitor, or at least to a certain extent on the same kind of devices. People are going to be viewing it on. Speaker 5 00:20:38 If it, if it's a, um, zoom type device, see if you can get it fed into your laptop, if it's something that's going to be on your, see if you can get the IP to sign it on your phone and watch what's going on, on, on the same kind of methodology as people are viewing it all. Yeah. It's great. Looking at everything on an engineering monitor, it reveals a whole bunch of other floors, but you can also go down a rabbit hole chasing stuff that people are never going to see. So I think parity of monitoring on the same kind of viewing device is really important because you're right. Your Mac is so much of the time people when they're looking at it, unlike the eight bazillion inch engineering monitor, when somebody is actually looking in a, on a 15 inch laptop screen at home, and they're like, what's going on, it's really kind of gloomy and dark and dark. I think that would be really important to it. Speaker 4 00:21:27 You know, Joe and I were talking about this just the other day, John, and it's, it's funny that you brought it up right out of the shoot because we're all thinking the same as, uh, we were fortunate to pick up a CBS television studio project right at the end of the year. And, uh, it was very interesting working in that, in a new studio for the first time for me. Uh, and again, some of the things were very forgiving and other things are not. But one of the things that came back out of my past is for years, I would tell these guys sitting in trucks that were, they were like whining about a couple of foot candles here, or a couple of degrees Calvin there and showing me it on their scopes. And I'm just looking at him. I go, you know, that like 80% of the people at home are watching this on a really shitty TV. Speaker 4 00:22:12 Okay. That's not an excuse. It's not an excuse to not do your best work. Don't get me wrong. Um, but there is that bridge of art and science and technology. And I, this studio thing that we were just working on, it was the same thing. I would go home at night and wow, what a great way to watch, how your steps going, right? You can just turn on the news, right. And you'll watch the news, see where the shadows are and use, you know, whatever. Right. And I would text him notes and go, Hey, you know, this is really glaring over here, you know, or whatever I would go home. And it would look dark to me in the very beginning of the first week in it. And I'd go in and I'd talk to the, to my client and he'd go, you know, it looked dark on my, on my TV too. Speaker 4 00:22:50 And then we'd get out that color critical monitor and we'd look at it goes, looks fine here. So we must be doing it right. I'm like, well, no, maybe, maybe we should make it look good for the millions of people that are, you know, looking at it at home. So I, I think that's, um, it's a great point that we need to pick our battles and these things and do what we, I always say, you know, you learn the rules and then you get to break them. Right. And if you're going to get to textbook about a lot of stuff, and where's the art, uh, there's certain things there that, of course we have to adhere to. And these are things now that are, could become second nature to us in so many ways. But having said that again, no one, I think the sign of a true artist in, in what we do is knowing when you can break those rules, have the balls to break those rules and get away with it, you know, and I know that's the wrong term, not get away with it, knowing that things aren't just black and white, you know, if you're an artist, they, how can they be just black and white, although you can do some great monochromatic stuff, but I digress, right. Speaker 4 00:23:53 I'm just saying that rules are meant to be broken or some are once you know what they are. And John made the same great point that, you know, Joe and I were talking about the other day that, you know, your, the quality of work is only as good as the person consuming the content. Yep. End of the day. Speaker 1 00:24:10 Well, and then that comes back to like, I used to get on engineers, you know, in live events where they're, you know, they're running shaders and on screen, you know, whether it's led or projection or whatever, it's like, man, it just looks dark and you walk back and you're looking at their engineering monitors and it's bright. And they almost look like they're, you know, they're wow, they're super hot. And I'm like, guys, you've got to push them a little harder. I can't see it. Well, it looks great. You know, and you'd get into that. You know, the engineering guy's mindset. Well, he was like, well, it looks good right here. It must look good everywhere else. And I'm like, well, who are we showing this to? I mean, the archive that honestly, probably no one's ever going to watch ever again, or Speaker 5 00:24:46 What if they do the pro sport, if they watch it again, I'll be watching that on a shitty TV. Anyway, Speaker 4 00:24:50 It's a cultural thing too. I mean, uh, or not, I, I take that back. So yeah, it it's a work culture thing. If you work in a TV studio or you work in a truck all the time, that's where you live. You're either in that submarine or you're in that TV studio in the last time they released, it was 11, 10, 12 years ago. Right. So all of a sudden when new things come in, the, the, the ability to adapt to change is nowhere near the ability to adapt, to change that everyone on this zoom zoom meeting has. Right. Yeah. Right. Um, we adapt so well to all those things because we've been thrown in the hole so many times, right. That's not to say that TV isn't come with stress. Of course it does. I'm talking about these controlled environments, right. Where it's literally, the guy comes out of the booth. Speaker 4 00:25:34 He goes back in the booth, gets his coffee, goes home and does it every day runs that news so many times a day. Right. And it's all about certain metrics that need to be met. Um, and you know, when you get into that whole thing, I mean, we, I think earlier we were talking about flat lighting and ring lighting and all of that, you know, the very first thing I asked these guys, when I went to that studio is, do you want this to look flat? Like every other TV, TV, news show, or do you want some cinematic vibe to it? And they immediately said they did. And then the minute we started showing it to them, they loved it. And then they started freaking out of every little shadow. Right. Which was resolved. And in the end we did light it cinematically. And I, I, I actually think that they made a good choice in doing that, but it was outside their comfort zone. Yeah. You know, and it looks shorter. Speaker 5 00:26:22 It's like any methodology that there are, you know, there are people who go, well, this is TV lighting, or this is constellating. And what does that even mean? I mean, you look at the way that people like Bobby Dickinson or Algood and, or, you know, or Alan Branton or some of the TV lighting designers, I respect light. It's highly theatrical. It's super modeled in cases, it's darker shit. And certainly in the room it's really dark, but it looks beautiful. And then there are other designers like the guys that do the TV game show stuff where it's bright and it's flat and it's white and it looks beautiful too. And I think what's important is to get really clear about what your client wants and really be clear about what you do. If you won a TV game show, lightened designer, I'm not your guy. I mean, I'll point you in the direction of a bunch of them that are your guy, but that's not what I do. Speaker 5 00:27:20 You know? So I think that's part of it as well. There's no one way to say this is the ideal way to do it. You know, you're the same way Paul, you know, and, and U2, Joe Mack, I mean, I've seen you like cars in ways that are breathtakingly theatrical, Joe, you know, the, that really bring out all of the sexiness and the, you know, the crease in the belly mode line and really kind of tickle that car with, with light in a way that if you just hit it with, you know, 400 foot candles and flat white light, it would look nowhere near as cool. Now is that the right I'm doing air quotes. Like people can see air quotes on a combat stuff, Speaker 0 00:27:56 But we didn't stop. Speaker 5 00:27:59 So one way of doing of lighting, how's, everybody's all it's gotta be flat and it's gotta be 200 foot candle. It's gotta be daylight. No, it doesn't. I mean, it's not a good place to start. That's probably a good place to stop. But, uh, as, as one of my mentors told me a long, long time ago, if you're not happy with the way it looks, start turning stuff off, not turning stuff off. And I guarantee you'll get to somewhere more interesting, more quickly by turning stuff off than you will, by turning more stuff on. If you're not up to speed with the weight, I guarantee you start eliminating colors. You know, I mean, it's Alan, Brandon told me that talk taught me that, that if you're not happy with the way something looks, stop turning colors off, not adding more colors. And, and it's a really good thing to think about. Speaker 5 00:28:41 And I think we can all over ourselves in, and you add a little bit more and you add a little bit more and you add a little bit more on that a little bit more, and then you have a perfectly even coat a bland over everything. But if you start to peel it away, you get to something really fundamental. And then maybe you can add other stuff back in, but come back to, what's the fundamental kind of core intent of your design, and then start to put stuff back in. Don't think that more is necessarily the fix. If you find yourself in a hole and that's really contrary contrarian, I am a more, is better kind of guy, generally Jordan, you've noticed this about some of my lights and rakes, um, but, but Speaker 0 00:29:20 No Speaker 5 00:29:21 Face on a podcast either, but you know, you know, I think turning stuff off is often a really interesting thing for us all to remember, even even more so to the lens than to the eye. Speaker 1 00:29:34 That's the definition of COVID too, though. I mean, less is more in a lot of ways for many people. I mean that hard stop in March was the brakes that, you know, honestly could have saved a lot of people from being completely burnt out six months later, because I mean, it was so fast and so furious. There was so much going on now we flipped everything on its head and turned it into an emotional, like mind-bending rollercoaster for quite a while. But, but that was like, like you said, John, if you're not happy and I'm going to turn this over into life for a second, because I think that really is a, um, I think that really is a poignant lesson for professionals in our industry. If you're not happy with where your life is, it might be time to take things out versus adding something in and putting more in it. You know, it's like if you're doing back to back to back to back to back to back to shows sure you might be making money, but what is that doing to your actual health and your quality of life and everything else that comes along with it? I mean, you know, ultimately where do we end up? You end up burnt out steaming pile of crap, you know, laying next to your bed. Like, Holy crap, Speaker 5 00:30:45 <inaudible> nail this earlier a little while ago. You know, the, the, my, my life coach says good enough is better than perfect. If it leaves room for.dot dot. So good enough is better than perfect. If it leaves room for more creativity, good enough is better than perfect. If it leaves room for sleep good enough is better than perfect. If it leaves room for family, good enough, it's better than perfect. If it leaves room for Joe Mac skateboards, you know what I mean? Put your.dot.in there, but good enough is better than perfect if it leaves from, for a quality of life that, that, that is optimal for you. It's, it's really important. Jordan and I, and I think, I think we're all going to have to be mindful of that as we get back to work is, is our natural inclination is going to be to take every job that comes along and get super stressed about this. Speaker 5 00:31:33 And it's been, it's been really democratizing while everybody has been in the lifeboats paddling, like paddling, like crazy, but what's going to happen is periodically. You're going to realize, Hey, hang on a minute. I'm in LA, I'm in LA. I'm still paddling like crazy here. And then going over there and sitting on the beach under an umbrella, drinking a drink where, you know, we had fruit in it. What the hell is going on now? Sometimes you're going to be the guy in the boat. Sometimes you're going to be the guy on the beach. It's important to remember which one you are and be kind to each other. And please, why don't we come out of this? Let's not like turn back to the industry that eats its young. Let's not undercut each other. Let's not bottom feed each other. Let's try and elevate all of us because I think the unity that we've seen in our industry with everything from red light restarts, red light red, let me try that again. Red alert, restart to people, leaning in and helping each other to find new ways to reinvent has been really great. Let's not go through all this and not learn anything that would be so sad to go through a year as disruptive and full of turmoil as the year. We've got a, not learn a little Speaker 0 00:32:40 Bit about each other and about to Speaker 4 00:32:41 Taking care of each other. I agree, 100%, I have to say too, that one of the lines or, or lines that I've always believed in is whether you live to work or work today. And I've always said that I work to live and don't live to work. Um, but this year has proven to me that that was really not necessarily all that honest to myself. Yeah. This stress of where that next job's coming from. How many jobs do I have lined up in the next six months? Um, you know, getting beat up by clients for no reason I am so over that. And I know there are other people too, if, if nothing, if I've learned nothing more this year, I've learned that. I mean, I'm far from financially independent. However, what I have learned are there ways to survive, there's ways to be able to balance your life and your work. Speaker 4 00:33:36 And I mean, sure, I do need to work more than I am right now. And I'm sure I will, but do I need to work as much as I thought I did before? I don't think I do. Yeah. I mean, I really, I really don't. And to me it's about the quality of the work that's going to come back. I want to do, am I going to go back and do corporate business theater? Sure, sure. And I know I sound like, Oh God, will I not take those jobs? Will I not want to do those jobs? Sure. Do I really look forward to some of what we were going through before where, uh, some of it was just so soul sucking, you know, you, you have to fight for the rig to make that set look great. You have to fight to get what you want to do the job only to get onsite, to have somebody from the client who's hired a print agency that knows nothing about lighting, tell you to turn half of it or three quarters of it off. Speaker 4 00:34:30 No understanding of the why that like, I mean, that goes back to, you know, we were talking about just lighting practices in general. I think that everything just has to have a reason when it comes to lighting something. Why did you like that thing over there? Why did you not like that thing over there? You know, it, shadows are cool. Darkness is cool. Uh, you may have a client that wants something flat. Okay. This is where we learn that old blind. Or we adhere to that old Tom Mendenhall line of never let your ego get in front of an invoice, you know? Speaker 0 00:34:58 Fair enough. Speaker 4 00:35:04 Yeah. I've pushed us into the weeds a little bit here, but, but point being that coming out of this and, and, or, or let me just say this, the projects that I have worked on in the last year, which haven't been that many have all been really rewarding. Some of them financially rewarding some of them very little money, but man was that cool? Was that great? What we just did, the impact that it had. And I would love to be able to come out of this and there's a whole other subject we can get into about getting together again and seeing our friends and our extended production families. That's, that's something I look forward to. I really look forward to doing more creative, less soul sucking work. And, um, am I in a position to turn work down? No. Yeah, but I can be honest with all of you here today. That that's what I'd love to do. I'd love to be able to be home enough, to be with my family and eat my own chickens and do my fun, but I want to do art. Speaker 3 00:36:03 You know, Jordan Jordan really hit the nail on the head, you know, saying, doing back to back to back to back, you know, at the, at the height of my company, um, you know, I did, uh, in 2016, I did from January 1st to middle of July. I'd had three days off total and, and I was on a plane every other day or in a different hotel or whatever. I, I literally killed myself by the summer. I started having stomach issues that has turned into a disease that I'm now carrying, um, and, and being treated for. But, um, you know, quality of life is so much more important than the work. It really is. You know, being there for your family I've learned for this year is, is so much more important than any gig I could ever do. Um, and, and so T taking, taking that in stride and, and to heart moving forward, I'm going to turn down a lot more work than I, than I take on, um, the unnecessarily take on, but I will always, you know, pass it down to the next, the next one coming up behind me, uh, to, to spread the wealth around. Speaker 3 00:37:13 Cause we're all in this together. Right. You know, we're all a team and we've proven that this year, everybody, everybody who's either advocate. Speaker 4 00:37:22 Oh, okay. Speaker 3 00:37:29 They're arching with some, whatever we show any team, any production, anything we're always in it together. So yeah, Speaker 4 00:37:37 We are. And that was great word, Joe, but we lost the last 15 seconds of it. <inaudible> Speaker 5 00:37:46 On your soapbox, Joe, you're being so inspirational mate. And then we last year crashed the internet. But one of the, one of the things that I've taken great delight in over this period is having an opportunity to try and do what you were talking about. Joe, at least I think what you were doing talking about you were either ordering coffee or you were saying, reach your hand down a little and help others up. And you know, we're engaged on this project at the moment. We're with Arizona state university, get there, there isn't an educational establishment in the world, much less than the United States who wouldn't be it wouldn't welcome any of us and anybody listening on this, on this call to come in and share your experience with students. And frankly, you don't have to be the old gray has to go back in and share your experience with students. Speaker 5 00:38:36 It's really valuable for students to, if you are, if you're five years into your career, if you're 10 years into your career, if you're 15 years into your career, if like Paula and I are your more years than that into your career, all of that is incredibly valuable experience. And in some ways, if you're, if you're, if you're closer to the beginning of your career than you're in, it's a lot more aspirational for students. You know, the, the through line to get from a, uh, freshmen at Arizona state university to Paul Ephron is really hard for them to see the breadcrumbs in that step. But from the, the freshmen to the person, that's three years out of college to the person, that's five years out the person that's 10 years out, the person that's 15 years and that's really useful information. So, so as we all look for opportunities to learn from this from a quality of life standpoint, I think it's really important that we look behind us otherwise, one day we're going to turn around and look behind us and all these students who are gonna find something else to do. Speaker 5 00:39:34 And I don't just mean people that are coming up through the path of academia. You know, there's obviously I didn't go to college to do this. I just ran away and joined the circus. You know, Paul, I think you did the same thing. Um, you know, so, so it doesn't matter your path. There's always somebody you can help. It doesn't matter where you are in your career. There's always somebody, a couple of steps behind you just reach in and reach out a hand and say, come on, let's, don't step that you're going to fall on your ass. You know, this is the Indiana Jones stepping on the right stones on your path where you're gonna afford your doom kind of thing, you know, reach behind you and help people up. And if you to Joe max point, if you have a gig that you're stressing out about, you can show, you can turn it down, but you can hand it off to somebody else. Speaker 5 00:40:16 You can say to somebody, Hey, let's partner on this, I'll mentor you. Let's kind of do this together. Let's, let's kind of divide and conquer. I think there's going to be so many opportunities for us to think differently about, about the way we work. I know we started talking about this, about lighting Jordan, and we've got super philosophical, but I think it's really important for us to think about the kind of place, the kind of industry we want to work in when we go forward, as well as the fundamental kind of nuts and bolts of how we do it. I think the, you know, the why we do it is a real opportunity at the moment to, to reevaluate that Speaker 1 00:40:47 I agree. I've I've, I came into this with no intention one way or the other, because ultimately there's always going to be another light to focus. There's always going to be another new moving light fixture thing, fangled, whatever. But the people that are here are not always going to be here. So, you know, as the industry, in my experience so far is getting older. Uh, you know, and, and as you, you know, John, you've been here in the industry a very long time. Paul, you have as well, you know, the, the age of a lot of people is, is progressing. And I haven't seen the entrance of the younger generation into our industry. Like it was even 20 years ago when I got in. Um, and so bringing someone, you helping them understand that, Hey, we're here to help you get into this and do something of great significance. Speaker 1 00:41:41 Um, because honestly I believe in our industry, we can actually help people do many things of incredible significance. Um, and they don't ever have to be in the limelight. They don't have to be someone who stands in front of people and talks to people or presents things or, or, you know, is a movie star or a singer or whatever. They can be involved in those things and do things of great significance without ever having to put foot on that stage. Because people who can see that they can sit there and say, you know what, I'm never going to be that, but how can my life matter and make significance? And how can I make a significant impact the way to do that is going to be then to get really good at what you do. And then do the same thing that a John Featherstone or a Paul did to you, which was grab you by the hand, bring you up, pull you into the direction, and then you turn around and grab the next person and bring them up into the industry. And, uh, and then that way, not only do we see a great train of excellent creative, amazing technicians designers, operators, but then we also help everybody understand where we're going and, and, and really, truly that we are a community that wants to grow what we're doing. Um, so John, you make a great point. I, the fly Speaker 0 00:43:03 Too, you know, it's, it's, uh, it's, it's, uh, it's a, a delightful symbiotic relationship you have with the up and coming younger people. Yeah. Right. Because I learned so much from them, there's, you know, technology's moves and move fast and continues to move really fast. And a lot of these younger kids and we get to call them kids now. Right. They're coming into this with huge strengths. I don't know about the numbers. You know, when we talk about people that were coming into the industry before versus now, I, I, you know, I can't speak to that, but some of the talent that's out there, uh, and these are the people that I want to hire on my gigs, you know, because not only do you get to do all of the things that you just mentioned, but you can learn so much from them as well. Speaker 0 00:43:44 Yeah. And seeing it new. I mean, it's, you know, I mean, I've, I've said to myself, a thousand times through this whole process, I promise I won't be jaded. I promise I won't be jaded. I won't be grumpy when I'm sitting at the airport to go to a gig and the upgrade doesn't clear on your, like, you know, how are you're actually sitting in an airport going to do a job you love and you're whining. Cause you don't want to sit in the front of the plate. You needy bitch. But, but there's nothing like working with a bunch of students to really re young people. And I, and I, and by students, I mean, young, young people, people at the beginning of their careers to really reinforce for you how great we have it the last year. So I'm not diminishing the last year, but really on a, on a, on a global scale. And on a macro scale, we have a job. We love most of us, certainly present company, very much Speaker 5 00:44:32 Included, uh, good at it and try and make the workplaces that we have a better place when we gather in the morning and try and treat people with respect and admiration. And then, and then, but then to just see the core of what we do through the eyes of, of, of people that are new to the business, it's really inspiring. It's completely brilliant. Speaker 1 00:44:49 Yeah. How so, John, you make a good point of being able to get in front of students, young people, how, what are a couple things that we could do, like myself included to put myself in the position to get there? I think a lot of times people don't do it cause they don't know how, um, you know, Arizona state, you guys are working with right now. Um, you know, what are some ways to, what have you done or found that works, Speaker 5 00:45:15 Frank, frankly, just, you know, look, look on the website of your local secondary tertiary education. The other thing, that's a big gap that we're sort of turning our focus to doing lights, which as well is junior high and high school is, is there's a big aspiration gap, particularly as we try to focus on getting more, uh, gender diversity and ethnic diversity in our business and getting more, more, particularly more, more BiPAP people involved in our industry, we've got to make it aspirational again. And frankly, by the time most students have got to college workplace for sale, whatever their path is that they're sort of in a direction. So I think even reaching down to middle school, junior high and high school, there's obviously huge funding issues going on in schools. This has been an incredibly expensive time for schools. Just, I mean, the amount of plexiglass that has been sold to schools in the United States is kind of mind boggling, go to your local high school, go, Hey, I'm an industry professional. Speaker 5 00:46:15 Can I come in and do, can I come in and talk to the students? Can I come in and help you when you're doing your production? Next time I do a show and there's that box of gaff tape and Jett while gels has he dating himself that box of gaff tape kicking around afterwards that even the stage hands don't want take you to your local school, they will weep tears of gratitude. Just, just get involved with, it's not hard. You know, if you, if you want to get involved in higher education, look up your local university theater department and drop them a note and just say, can I come in? Can I just come and chat to the students and just be a, be a sounding board, both of the students. And I think, especially for what we do, um, it's important to help students understand that there are pathways other than legit theater. Speaker 5 00:46:58 I go in and do a, a thing at ASU every year where I talk about life beyond theater. And I say, and I say to a group of 20 or 30 students, 10% of you, if you're really lucky will make a living in technical theater and there's many long faces. And then, but there's architecture, there's themed environments, there's concert touring, there's corporate theater and they're like corporate. What, um, and there's all these other avenues and you see that Spirit's left and, and frankly, some of the best conversations I've had, there's, there's almost always at the end of those kinds of presentations, um, one or two students who will come up and say, can we see, can I give you a deck? Can I give you a number to my dad? Can I give you a number to my mom? Cause they're really worried. Um, and I'm a dad too. Speaker 5 00:47:45 I've talked to these other parents and said, well, I can't speak to your child's attitude or aptitude, but what I can tell you this is if they choose to take a path in some of the directions that I've been fortunate to fall into, they can make a living. They can, they will not end up living in a van down by the river, unless that's their methodology and their choosing chosen direction to follow their craft. They may get drunk community theater. I've got a friend of mine, of woman. I respect greatly who lives in Phoenix, who, who get her payment by working with kids in inner city theater, because that's what lights are up. And she chooses that path. That's great. She's not interested in the house, in the car and all of that stuff. She's found a goal. And frankly, I think that's super important and aspirational, but you to open up these other potentials to students, I think, I think his obligation is a strong word, but it's almost an obligation for those of us that have had a little bit of, of success to, to send the elevator back down, you know, and also to say to other students, yeah, there's the traditional theater elevator, but there's, there's an architecture one over here and there's a theme environment one over here. Speaker 5 00:48:56 And you know, those concerts that you go to, somebody is actually doing the lights of that too, you know, and just have them connect these dots and see all this stuff as aspirational. So Speaker 3 00:49:05 The, one of the things I actually did, um, the second everything shut down was I started, uh, seeking out universities that were looking for guest professors speakers, um, to, to discuss, uh, corporate lighting and lighting for, you know, fortune 500 companies, uh, lighting for auto shows, lighting for, uh, Nike, whatever it was. We were able to, I was able to give, I did three or four presentations, um, with various universities in the Ohio river Valley, um, area. So I, I had no idea any of the professors that reached out to me, but I got put on a list of, uh, guest speakers and they sought me out and, and, and found me. So, you know, just looking up in on Facebook, um, every thing, stage lighting, lighting, designers, those, all those forums are great, great resources to find that kind of stuff. Um, if you're looking to, to, uh, be a guest speaker, Speaker 1 00:50:03 That's awesome. I think that's outstanding. And I can, I couldn't agree more with you, John, about our responsibility as, uh, you know, call us, call it the elders of the, of the event world, especially you and Paul who have been doing this for a very long time. You've watched the ebbs and the flows. You've watched the ups and the downs, and you can speak to people, especially young people and say, listen, it might look really bad right now, but you know, this is where we can go. This is what we can do. Um, and really truly, it's not nearly as bad as you think it is, even though everybody's telling you it is, it's not because there's still opportunity. There's still a way to, to become and do something that you want to do. You don't have to give up on your dream just because it might not look exactly the way you thought it would. And, um, right. I mean, it's such a huge, uh, yeah. Obligation. I mean, frankly, I mean, let's just call it what it is. If we don't do something, if we don't do it, who is, who's going to do it, who's going to go and tell people, tell kids, tell young people about what we do, because I mean, go ahead, Paul, Speaker 4 00:51:14 You need a balance between what you learn academically with theater. I was in a theater arts program for about a year and a half. Um, before I ran off to the circus. And I would say that the, you need a balance of that circus life or being mentored by people that have done that. I'm going to stop using the term circus, but the real world of doing the work again, you're putting that in a controlled environment. If all you know is a controlled environment, that's, that's not that doesn't work for me. I really, like I said, it's an obligation to try to share what you know about the real world. And whenever you can try to mentor people and bring them out there on the road, get them out there if they show that potential, you know, because it's, I just, I mean, I've seen that difference between people that are strictly academically trained lighting designers. Speaker 4 00:52:10 And I don't want to say all, they're not all that way, but just, just on how they interact with the crew, you know, at the end of the day, did they learn the names of any of the people on their crew? You know, um, if they hadn't had that earlier experience of actually having to sit on the top of an A-frame ladder, talking about dating myself or climbing up, or, you know, I mean, my, I guess my point is, is that, I don't know, John, you're probably the same way, but there's a light up there. Isn't doing exactly what I want it to do. Do I really, am I really gonna make that guy go up there and move it six inches to a foot? Just because, just because I know what a pain in the asset is, is it really good? Is there going to be a return on making someone do that or is that just the way you were trained? Speaker 4 00:52:57 You know, like what it goes back to. I think what I was saying about you learn the rules and then you decide which rules you can break. And I think that you need some level of real-world experience to be able to make those calls, unless you're really going to work in that same controlled environment all the time for the rest of your life. Um, yeah. Which to me is, is less interesting as a life experience in general. Yep. No, absolutely. Yeah. I'm glad they do it, you know? I mean, and again, I'm not, I, I'm not putting down people that are academically trained or people that teach. No, absolutely not. I'm just saying that the value that I think we're all discussing that we can bring here, uh, helps well-round those people to understand there is more than, like you said, John, just theater, there's all these different things, all these different experiences that you can light and be a part of lighting. And there's so many people that don't even know what a lighting designer is. I mean, how many people have you told your lighting designer? And they look at you, like, Speaker 0 00:54:01 Will you help me with the lighting in my kitchen? You're like, um, I dunno, can you cook? Which led bulbs should I buy? Speaker 4 00:54:10 How many famous, famous lighting designers you really bad? You know what I mean? Yeah. How many of you just want to start counting them? You know, I mean, and famous to who, right? I mean, again, not putting the craft down, but it, where does that ego meet the rest of it? You know, I also, I also have to say too, that what I'm noticing out there now is a lot of young and up and coming lighting designers are getting these really big jobs. And a lot of it is there's a change in that culture of Fu the lighting designer just walked in the room, everybody stopped, you know, they're not piss him off. Oh, you know, he's going to freak out and it's all about him. And I see that the end clients don't appreciate that drama anymore. Like they don't really see that as a necessarily a plus cause you know, having a shit fit over something small, whereas a lot of these other guys are easygoing. They come in, they do their gig and that whole little ego drama thing, I've, I've really noticed that affecting who's getting work and who's not, I just think that's an interesting, at least to me, interesting aspect of how things are evolving in the industry. Speaker 0 00:55:17 I mean that's, and that's, that's a huge plus that's really, Speaker 4 00:55:21 Oh, absolutely. Who the hell are we? You know what I mean? It's like we come in and do our job, like every other, every other player on that team, uh, whether you're running a specific art department as lighting or sound or whatever, but you know, it doesn't just revolve around sound or lights or whatever. It's the group effort and things are important that you have, there's things you have to fight for there's times when you need to know when to throw up that white flag and, and get out of the bomb zone fast, you know, Speaker 0 00:55:51 But Speaker 4 00:55:53 At the end of the day, I mean, I don't want some guy working for me that even if he's really, really good at what he does, I don't want some guy that's going to just constantly be all about him and that we can't do it that way. Like, well, yeah, you probably can. You may not want to. Right. Yep. Speaker 0 00:56:12 It's like, do you want to hear that? Yeah. Speaker 4 00:56:14 Everything you talked about and you know, but I've done this and I've done that and I know better than all of you. Well, not really. You have a theory and well, you know, so when I first met Joe Speaker 1 00:56:24 Years and years ago, I was, we were part of a nonprofit down in Texas. And he came in as an outside lighting designer and he was one of the first outside people we'd ever had come in to like do stuff. And because of the way we'd been trained, it was like, this is the way to do it. And so I was like, I was like that kid where, you know, I'm like 24 and I'm like, Nope, this is how you do it. And it has been such an experience for the last 15 years, realizing that there are a thousand ways to do the same exact thing. And ultimately in the end, it doesn't matter which one of them we use as long as it gets done effectively. And you know, like John, like you said, you know, good enough is going to make sure that it gets done and really, truly perfect, perfect won't ever exist. It's not ever going to be there, you know, perfect. As an excuse for not finishing your task. Let's, let's say that. Right. Um, and so like, I totally get that. And I think you're right, Paul, I think that if you help those that you know, are coming into the industry, understand that, you know what, man, there's 10 ways to do this. You can do it that way. If you'd like, I can promise you that this, this, this, and this are gonna go wrong when you do it that way. But you can sit. Speaker 5 00:57:45 Yeah. If you're going to do it that way, give me enough notice to get my camera ready because we're going to walk it's on YouTube. Right. People have asked me that, you know, as we've been, as normally, I've been really fortunate to, to grow a company. What's some of what's one of the fundamentals about having people work for you. And I think one of the things that both norm and I have tried really hard to focus on is getting really clear about what's the difference between different and rock. And that's your point, Jordan, there are a bunch of different ways to do things. And a lot of the time, I mean, I I'm delight in that is looking at something and go, I mean, sometimes I look at stuff and go, Oh, I would never in a million years have done that. And here's why, but sometimes it's like, I would never in a million years have thought of doing that. Speaker 5 00:58:38 What a freaking great idea that is. I, that would never cross my mind. That's absolutely brilliant. Oh, that's just a different way to do it. It doesn't mean that it's wrong. That's just your way of doing it. And I think God, wouldn't be boring being in this, this creative field or in if everybody did everything exactly the same way. If Joe Mack lit the same way as Paul and pulled it the same way as me and I looked the same way as Joe Mack, that would be so boring. You know what I mean? It's what I was saying before about own owner who you are and your style, you know, get really comfortable on, um, on, on what you want to be. I'm going to miss a tribute. It it's not wasn't Charlie Parker was, it was a, another famous jazz musician insert the jazz musician of your choosing here, who said you to play for a long time to learn how to play like yourself. And, but I think it's a craft that's worth really practicing is saying what's, what's my thing. What's, what's my muse. What's my groove. You know, how, how do I like to do me best? And just be the best you, you can be. That's so anybody can ask you is just be the best you that you, Speaker 4 00:59:40 And be kind like you said, John, you know what I mean? It's, it's interesting that, like you said, I watch things on TV all the time. We all do. And I used to be so much more critical of things I saw, like, what the hell was he thinking? Or she, or whoever was in there. Right. And now I, I, I realized and we all do from experience. You don't know just like, you don't know what people's life like, what they're going through in their life and why you should be finding them for that. You don't know why that guy's, backlights all fucked up. It's probably because he had no place to hang it right now. Why did he do it from the floor? Why did it Speaker 5 01:00:13 He's being brave? You know, he's been brave enough to fail. You know, I think really important to be brave enough to fail. So I got a crazy idea. We're going to try this and it may work and it may not. And if it doesn't, then at least we'll have learned another way to not do it. Or a lot of the time when I see people make choices, other than I make, I want to know why in the right way. It's like, well, that's, that's really interesting. Why did you make that decision? There was a whole lot of hoopla a little while ago, about a very well-known renowned lighting designer, use mirror, moving lights. I want to shout everyone's like, why is he using that technology? And he's like, because he was an eighties band, you know? So I was doing an eighties thing and I'm like, that's brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. So all you idiots on Facebook, why don't you try and understand why they made that choice rather than just armchair quarterback. Speaker 4 01:01:04 Exactly. That's, that's exactly my point. Not to mention that mirrors are really fast. Yeah. Speaker 5 01:01:10 Right? Exactly. Speaker 4 01:01:13 And interest in mirror fixtures. I'm not here to promote that. I'm just saying that, you know, but, but again, everybody can be an armchair quarterback in lighting. I've seen it, I've watched it other than those that don't know what lighting is and we've already discussed that as well. But, uh, you know, you don't know the circumstances on the other end of that lens. And, and like you said, maybe it's a choice. Maybe it's a choice you had to make in a hurry because I got to get some sort of backlight behind that person. I have to do something and you know, and I've watched you, John, you make great use of natural light and, and look at things, you know, assess, I know there was a job we did years ago where, uh, you were, you were doing a room on a, on a project we were working on. And the first thing you did was look up at the ceiling and he looked at the existing lights in the room. They were right. Colored temperature. There wasn't much left to have to do. Right. And if you can approach things from that, that angle of what does this really need versus, and then what does it really need? And then what can I add or subtract from it? That's going to make it look better. Right? And then there's other times when you're forced a situation where you gotta go Speaker 0 01:02:20 Fast and you gotta, they're going to start shooting this thing. And you're in a venue that sucks. And you can't have what you really want to have. You certainly can't have what you might've been taught by your mentors or back in college that had to be. And I think that's what comes back to what I was saying earlier. You know, you got those rules. How do you break them and still succeed. Let's not make our lives hard for ourselves. We have the video department to make our lives. Exactly kidding. I'm kidding. Hey man, Speaker 1 01:02:51 Half a foot candle dimmer in between these two positions. Can we fix that please? Speaker 0 01:02:57 No, cause that's, that's my muse dammit. That's me being the best me that I can be. Is that around me? Speaker 1 01:03:07 I love it guys. Well, Hey, thank you so much. Um, you know, it took a completely different turn than we planned on. So we'll have to do another one about actual lighting when it comes to, uh, XR and other things. Speaker 0 01:03:18 All right. We'll figure out how to pull. And I actually don't want to talk about lighting because we don't really know what kind of faking it the whole way. So what's a foot candle. Anyway, I have faith. I don't know about candles, Speaker 1 01:03:35 Joe, anything else you want to toss out there before we, uh, wrap this up today? Speaker 0 01:03:40 Uh, no, I think, uh, I think a great takeaway was Paul, uh, evolving immediately. You know, that's, that's going to be the key for us moving forward. As we, as we roll into a new type of show, hybrids, virtual, remote, whatever the hell you want to call it. Yep. No, exactly. Willing to evolve. Speaker 1 01:04:00 That's right. And reaching behind and grabbing somebody else to bring them with you because we're not going to do this alone. And if you want your next gig to be better, have somebody tagging along with you, whether it's your, whether it's your kid, whether it's somebody else, you know, John, your daughter has just jumped in full bore. She's a rock star. I know she's been killing it out there. Um, and props the human race in such a great daughter who really is, uh, who really is doing such a great job. Um, real quick, before we go, actually, John, you want to plug your ASU stuff you guys are doing and, and your modern art Speaker 0 01:04:35 I'd love to. So we do a project called design space. It's the intersection of a bunch of students who aren't getting real world experience, a bunch of gears sitting around not being gainfully utilized. Then I'm in grad deep gratitude to Jack wait lists and Daniela D Coke from video West for providing us. Basically, they were like, here's your shop? Go, go create something amazing with the students. So it's an Arizona state university. It opens on April the ninth, it's in a six story parking structure. And it's basically a mile long drive through interactive Madonna experience that is giving a bunch of hardworking students and a bunch of hardworking industry professionals, something to do together. And there's a lot of people reaching out there, hands down and helping others up. So if you have a chance, if you're in the Phoenix Speaker 5 01:05:18 Area, you can get tickets from the ASU Gammage website and come and see what these students are creating. It's really remarkable. Speaker 1 01:05:24 And if you can't come buy a ticket anyways, Speaker 5 01:05:27 I took it anyway. Yeah. Yeah. Cummings optional buying tickets mandatory. Speaker 1 01:05:32 Where, which website is that again? The ASU Speaker 5 01:05:36 You Gammage, it's ASU gammage.edu, I believe. But if you search for ASU Gammage, which is the theater side of ASU ventures, you'll, uh, you'll drop right into their website and it's called design space. It's right up front on the ASU. Gammage G a M M a G E. Speaker 1 01:05:54 Awesome. ASU Gammage. And uh, you guys can find tickets and enjoy the experience at ASU, a mile long modern art drive through, uh, which is awesome. And John and I were talking about earlier, he actually said, it's not a one direction thing. So if there's stuff that you enjoy that you want to see again, there's great opportunity to go check out things more than once and really enjoy the experience. And I think you said 12 shows over the next three weeks or over the three weeks. Speaker 5 01:06:25 Yeah, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, starting on April the ninth, four for three weeks. Speaker 1 01:06:30 Awesome. And then I plan, I fully anticipate them extending it because I'm sure it's going to be a giant hit. That is just going to, yeah, that's awesome. Well guys, thank you so much for taking the time today. We really appreciate it. Uh, the future of our industry is incredibly important and not all of you are working very hard to see that not only we get there, but also those that come behind us. So thank you so much. And, uh, man, really appreciate your guys' time today. Speaker 5 01:06:58 Thanks for having us. It's great to see you. Speaker 1 01:07:00 Awesome. Thanks guys. Thanks guys. We'll see you. Wow. While it wasn't what I expected, man. It was such a great time talking with John and Paul and Joe Mac about all of the great things in our industry. Man. This is such a great place. And you as a professional, get the chance every single day to do something more amazing than you did yesterday. By helping those around you, becoming a better professional, doing better at what you do and reaching behind you and pulling someone else up. So here's what I say. Tell people about, get ready, go out there, become a better professional and do what you do best, which is make shows happen. Have a great day. Thanks for listening to gig. Ready.