Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 00:00:58 <inaudible>
Speaker 0 00:01:14 Good afternoon, everybody. Jordan Goodfellow back again, gig ready, excited for our conversation today, talking about all things, touring video direction and how to execute in the high stakes world of video. When it comes to touring, we're talking with skip Twitchell. He has directed some of your favorites down the road since the two thousands we're talking Andrea Bocelli, Lincoln park, Aerosmith, Stevie wonder journey. The list goes on comedy tours abound. Skip. Thanks for being here today. Glad to have you nice talking to you, Jordan. Thanks for asking me. You're welcome. We had skip and I were together for a number of years on Lincoln park back in 2010 to 2014. Um, had a great time some contention at moments. Uh, I've never had anyone yell at me harder than skip did, uh, in, in England once it was, uh, it was an eyeopening and life-changing moment for me, but a story for another time. So I'm really happy to have him here and excellence my friend. That's right. I, I still remember how I felt after that. Like going from zero to, you know, I'd never seen you yell at anyone ever, and then all of a sudden, you just unleashed Henri. I can still like visually see the backstage area and the big open area where we were setting up video where it like it was imprinted in my mind that much and Birmingham. Oh, sure.
Speaker 0 00:02:54 I will admit that, but Hey, you know, it didn't last long. No, it didn't. And it, you know what though? Honestly, it, it, it was a life-changing moment for me and, um, someone had to call me on it and you did, and I can't thank you enough for, for, for doing it.
Speaker 2 00:03:13 I'm glad it worked out well. I'm not, I'm not a yelling guy. And, uh, if you, if you're going to get me to holler, something's gotta be going on pretty soon. Like I said, it was a moment, a moment that came and went all as well.
Speaker 0 00:03:26 It did. Um, and I think, and I think that everything got better after that too. Um, if I remember correctly, that was like 2012, I think, or something like that. And, uh, just the rest of the tour was smooth. Not that it wasn't smooth before then, but, um, it, it was a great perspective shift for me. And it's actually really true
Speaker 2 00:03:48 All those years. You were a fabulous partner to have on the road. And it was really an example of how, you know, it's a, it's a cliche, but teamwork making the dream work because we had, even though a lot of the time, it was just you and I, and we didn't have a video crew or five or six. It was just you and I and a Muno minimal amount of gear, changing countries every day and a week. We'd knock it out of the park every day.
Speaker 0 00:04:16 We did, we had a lot of fun. I told somebody the story the other day about when we, when we shot the entire show with a GoPro on, on a wireless, on a wireless broadcast pack, because none of the cameras
Speaker 2 00:04:28 We're going to read that, that, that one's later on down the list here, that's actually on my, that was one of our lovely visits to Brazil. Yes,
Speaker 0 00:04:36 It was. Well, so we'll get started talking about being a video director. I mean, you've been doing this for so long. In fact, you started back when you lived in Indiana, you grew up there as a producer. Um, so I mean, you've been around the live music industry since the who, I mean, you were talking Sammy Davis Jr. Uh, you know, such an incredible history. Now you've moved yourself into the world of video direction. Um, as you defined that over the last 20 years of your, of your professional career, what do you see your role within? Not just the video team, but the whole touring family, um, as a video director, what do you see that role as? How do you define that?
Speaker 2 00:05:18 Well, I was really lucky to get started with a Nocturne, which is a company that journey built when really videos started first entering the touring world. And the great thing about the journey guys and Herbie Herbert, the manager was they preached the show is a full piece. It's not the largest delighting or just a sound or just a video. If you're not looking at the show as a, from a holistic point of view from the crowd's point of view. Yeah. Won't notice if a set pieces out of place, or if maybe one light doesn't work, they're not going start bad mouth in the band. So you, as, as a crew member need to think about the big picture. I know I spent a lot of time talking to people about the big picture, that if you're a little bit too worried about just your, your particular little problem, you got to look at how it affects the whole thing in order to be an effective crew member and basically successful, happy crew member on tour.
Speaker 0 00:06:19 That's right. Very nice. Um, you know, that was, I remember your ability to sacrifice, like your thought process. When you think about what other people need, the ability and the willingness to roll with the punches through some of the countries, you know, putting your, you know, being willing to go sit in the back corner. Oh yeah. We can take that five by five piece of real estate for video video village. We'll shoehorn it in there. Um, just teamwork you're right. It, 100% is part or the main portion of touring, um,
Speaker 2 00:06:54 Be able to defend what your part of the puzzle is and not give so much up that you can't do what you're there to do in the first place, but yeah, making that work with everything else, it's, you know, the sound is science and the first necessity, if you're going to have a concert, if everybody can't hear you don't have a show. Second after that lighting lighting is art. It's that you're visually enhancing the show, but maybe you're only got the cheap seat you're way in the back of the room, which means video visual enhancement is your key to be able to being able to enjoy the show. Yeah. So I've always said, I don't, even though the artists might think I work for them, my actual client is Joe Schmo or Jane Schmoe who is in road triple X and paid 35 bucks for their top row seat. That the only way they're going to figure out what's going on on stage is by what they see on my screens. So I'm delivering the front row eyes to the back row seats. Yeah. That's a great way to describe no matter, no matter the artist, no matter the venue, Manhattan, New York, Manhattan, Kansas, doesn't matter.
Speaker 0 00:08:12 Yeah. And was that, was that something you just picked up naturally over time watching shows being a part of shows or was there somebody that really inspired that in your psyche, as you, you know, grew up through the years of U2, Joshua tree, Bongiovi, Eagles, et cetera,
Speaker 2 00:08:30 Was just after the Joshua tree run. I was on George Michael. That was a handheld camera on stage for George Michael when he was in his absolute peak of his career. And, uh, I'm onstage with a camera and I would shoot a reversal on him as he's out downstairs, looking over the audience. And, uh, he would shake his butt and the girls would go mad and I would zoom in on his butt when he shook his butt and the girls would go even crazier and talk about instant gratification. It's like, Oh, I can have an effect with somebody all the way back there. If I'm in the right spot and get the right shot, the director will cut to it. The girls will all scream and we all walk away happy. Yeah. Okay.
Speaker 0 00:09:16 I couldn't have said it better myself. Perfect.
Speaker 2 00:09:19 Yeah, it was really, it was demonstrated to me nobody ever really defend defined it, but it was, uh,
Speaker 0 00:09:26 Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.
Speaker 2 00:09:30 Some good and some not so good sometimes.
Speaker 0 00:09:34 So looking at all of these projects that you've, that you've done, I mean really each tour kinda you get the front and the back of it. And regardless of whether it's a new album cycle or it's just another run of the same, you know, grouping of, of, of a show, when you walk into a project for the first time, a new artist, a new, a new tour, how do you manage that from the beginning? You know, when you want to look at all right, here's the design, are you involved in the design or do you normally come in after it's all there and you just have to make it work? And then how do you manage that process
Speaker 2 00:10:14 In the best of possible worlds I'm involved while the design, before the design is locked? Yeah. Concepts have been paraded before the artist and they've decided what direction they want to go. And, um, the designer, which, you know, there's, there's people who design to reality and there's people who don't care about reality, but that's because they're designers, that's not their problem. It's our as working group people, we need to take that design and turn it into some manner of reality that we can move 400 miles a day and still make show wherever we land. Yeah. So, um, the earlier the better that I'm involved, I prefer plenty of times I am handed a fait accompli. I was like, here it is, make this work. Yep. You know, it's really, you, you have to take the blinders off, look at the big picture. Hopefully you're getting some, uh, good feedback and information from production either. If not from the artist directly, then from the production manager, whoever's Manning the ship, conning the ship as it were so that you're, um, you're not just making stuff up on your own. Yeah. Some people like freelancing, some people can't stand it and, and being able to, you know, being able to read, read the field as it is.
Speaker 0 00:11:55 Yeah. How do you, how do you stay? How do you keep things organized? Um, I mean, of course from a touring standpoint, same process, you, and I've had this discussion do the same thing every day in the same order. That way you never forget any step of the process. Um, in fact, I remember very critically. I think it was in 2010, sometime in the fall during our first tour together. You and I had a very succinct conversation about that because there was some challenges with getting everything up in time or something like that. Um, and that helped to keep things just progressing through. Um, what else are you doing to stay organized during the process of the touring and load in load out all of that?
Speaker 2 00:12:38 Well, repetitive motion is your friend. That's in a touring businesses rather than doing, um, corporates or individual one-off live events. You have the opportunity to take a second bite and a third bite and a fourth bite at the Apple and improve your production game each time and streamline things on the artistic side of it. It's the same thing is that you get a second and a third and a fourth and maybe 150 sixth chance to refine your cues, really from an artistic point of view, for image magnification for imag side screen stuff, you're trying to show the audience what they hear, if, if, if somebody is doing a guitar. So, and you're, you've got the basis up on screens, somebody's scratching their head somewhere and you're not really doing the job.
Speaker 0 00:13:38 That's right. I, you say that. I look at video now, like if I'm watching a concert and the person that's playing or singing is not, on-screen within, you know, a few seconds, I'm like, I want to yell at the screen. I want to yell at the guy. What, what are you doing? Why, why is that person not on screen? Um, that's, you know,
Speaker 2 00:14:00 Each department has their reason to be there. What was one of my favorites? Sound is science. Lighting is art video should be in by noon. That's the way it used to be until they put led screen behind everybody and hooked him in with a lighting crew. And now we're showing up first thing in the day with lighting crew. And there's no more slacking around on the video.
Speaker 0 00:14:21 Nope. No, there's not first in first in almost last out. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:14:27 You're fighting not to be last out most of the time, but yeah. It's um, from a directorial point of view, you are doing a visual interpretation of the music for the people from 20 rows back. Yeah. Wanting to throw back because you don't want to distract the people that are close enough for the band to make eye contact or the, because they are there to play for live audience. Well, it's changed a little bit now that everybody's staring into their phones. Yeah. That doesn't help the whole thing now. But, uh, when, when we started on, um, Joshua tree, there were no screen we're doing stadiums and where there were no screens on the stage. The only imag screens were behind the front of house next condo, because the previous tour U2 had done a single screen on the front truss above the stage. Uh, and the problem with that is everyone's eye is drawn to a television, no matter where it is in the room.
Speaker 2 00:15:48 If there's movement on a screen, if you're going to go, you're going to be distracted and look at it. So if there is a TV screen above the stage, you're going to look up at that screen as often as you're looking straight up at the band. So, and the other problem is when you look up nine times out of 10, your mouth falls open. So when the lead singer is looking into the crowd and instead of making eye contact with the people he's playing to a bunch of drowning chickens, because they're all looking up at the TV screen with their mouth hanging open, all of a sudden they decide they don't like video very much interesting. I've never, I've never thought about that before. That's a really, that's really cool. This is how this is evolving a client into liking video because you go through three U2 tours, you go from unforgettable fire, or you can see the clips of them playing red rocks with the screen above the stage, how you keep that screen up.
Speaker 2 00:16:50 And red rocks is another story. Um, you go to Joshua tree with the Ivy hush. So this is how you develop a client who might not necessarily like videos so much. So they had done the unforgettable fire with a screen above the stage and the distraction of the audience then. So when they came to Joshua tree, they only wanted the imag screens behind the front of house mix so that everybody in the front would be looking at the stage, not at the screens. Yeah. We accomplished that so well on Joshua tree that when zoo TV came around, it was all video all the time, every place I still don't know the tour, that's had 328 individual live screens like zoo TV had. So it was pretty much a high watermark in the video production world that I still don't think has been bested
Speaker 0 00:17:52 328.
Speaker 2 00:17:55 Um, we didn't, it was before the led era. So there were, it was, um, projection cubes were a large portion of those. So the big screens as you would normally have on the side were stacks and stacks of, Oh, call them maybe three by five foot screen, projection cubes stacked together with little 5k projectors in the back. They were built as a box. Yeah. And, uh, the stacks of the stacks of those projection cubes were affectionately known as the Buffalo, because we were Democrats backstage and closed down any possible exit route when everybody else is trying to load it or out, once you release the Buffalo, we have all ways blocked until we get our stuff into position. Got it. Three or four truckloads of them scattered monitors everywhere at her house. It was as it kept building and building as a tour, went on,
Speaker 0 00:18:52 Got it. I have the, I have the U2 show, the big thick hardcover book that they put out. I don't know, 10 years ago, eight years ago, something like that. I'll have to pull it out and look at that cause they have zoo TV there. Um, and
Speaker 2 00:19:06 There's monitors all over the stage. There's he had a bonobo, had a, a remote control that he would change channels on. Uh, that was, that was what he, in those days he was he'd he'd call the white house every show. Yeah. And, uh, you know, sometimes you'd order a pizza for the crowd.
Speaker 0 00:19:24 Okay. Very cool. What was it?
Speaker 2 00:19:27 That's the whole evolution of, you know, turning a band's opinion from heading video into totally immersing themselves.
Speaker 0 00:19:34 Totally. No, I, I, that's a great descriptor of the process. Um, and so looking at that, that evolution software, um, and different computer-based, I mean, video technology has, has advanced, um, teen degrees since that era. And so what, what are some solutions that, you know, that you use or have used, or are wanting to use in the future that, you know, that have made such a progress that weren't possible before?
Speaker 2 00:20:12 Well, the technology changes every two years, so you've got to stay up on the technology in general, just to stay current. And that's the danger of investing in gear is you've got to get that gear to pay off. If you don't have the gear paid off in 18 months, you better have a good idea of how you're going to work it hard because then the great, latest, greatest thing is about to come out and it's going to step on your eye, your dreams there. Yes, it will, as you will know, I'm sure. Um, so we've always tried to be on the forefront of the technology edge. We know everybody likes to do the latest, greatest things and designs are completely enamored with that. So they that's part of their sales point is I'll get you the best thing ever. They just made this new way to slice bread. You're not going to believe it.
Speaker 0 00:21:11 It's a semi serrated knife instead of a fully cerated knife.
Speaker 2 00:21:17 Um, this year's model is now the XR stages. Yeah. Where now we have the ability to, uh, completely, enfold an artist in pre produced content where we're controlling cameras. We can do foreground and background set pieces. We can basically take them off into a fantasy world where they're, it's, uh, I'm curious as to see how this will come out of COVID and how it's going to get used in a real touring application. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's, it's like the, um, when they were doing the gauze projections for, um, Tupac at Coachella, when they're doing, you know, bringing, bringing people back to life in that manner where you can, you, you can kind of pull it off, but it doesn't really lend itself to touring.
Speaker 2 00:22:25 Well, we'll just have to see, I mean, everybody invents manages events, something new every year, we're still doing it. So it's we've. I mean, when we started, it was Ida four projectors and a general electric GE light valves, which GE light valves, projectors were invented, um, at the behest of the air force to be part of a, um, flight simulator to project your three screens around the flight simulator, where you would actually be sitting in a cockpit that was monitored on hydraulic gimbles. Wow. And, uh, those projectors were meant to be installed serviced and never moved for 30 years.
Speaker 0 00:23:11 What do we do? Let's see where you put them on
Speaker 2 00:23:14 Truck every day and haul them up and down. And, uh, the, the problem with the, the live valve was the way it worked was there was a Lexile disc that rotated through an oil bath inside this machine. So the electron gun wrote on this plastic screen, the film of oil on this screen, then a really bright light was banging through that. And that's how they made TV pictures. Problem is this, this, nobody from GE would ever admit what kind of, uh, oil it was, although it would go, it would ask like Chris, go, it goes solid at about 70 degrees, anything above 70, all of a sudden it's a super light oil. It would melt. So if you happen to tip one of these projectors on its side, when it's hot,
Speaker 2 00:24:06 All the oil soaks all the electronics and takes the machine out of the game, it makes, do not tip a deadly. I mean, if, if, if the thing is still, if the ball is still hot enough, you might explode the lamp. Interesting. The best way to give a projection as to heart attack is to take the empty projector case, put it in a hallway, put it on its side and pour a little puddle or something next to it. And when the projector just comes around the corner and sees is projected outside leaky, he will probably need to replace his underwear. That happened more than once.
Speaker 0 00:24:52 I love that. That's it? That it's a super great prank. That is it's. So it's, and it's so safe. You just drop a little bit, what was it clear liquid or was it,
Speaker 2 00:25:03 You didn't have to use oil, you could use water next to the thing. And the gag would come up just as well.
Speaker 0 00:25:09 Then I have a question there. So how would you get more oil if you needed it, would you have to send those things back to GE and they would then replenish it.
Speaker 2 00:25:16 I've never had anybody have to replace the oil. I mean, we did, because if, if you had a serious oil spill on the thing, it wasn't field serviceable. Got it. Okay. I mean, you you'd always be pulling my replacement modules on the thing. You're always pulling off high power modules and this and that. And the other thing that would fail for various other reasons. But, um, yeah, it was like, uh, it looked like a giant ice cube tray that this circular disc would rotate through. Like the rotation on the disc was like every 10 minutes. So, um, if you had a little hiccup in your sink, it would leave a little blast on the, on the oil and you would see these look like a little Saturn that would kind of slowly rotate through your picture until it passed. As the thing was like a Rubix mouse from a mouse trap. I don't know how to describe the thing, but got it. We only had them for a while. That was, that was the first five or six years.
Speaker 0 00:26:23 DelDOT fat. I mean, fascinating. That's like, I mean, geez, that was when I was born. What was that? Was that early eighties?
Speaker 2 00:26:30 Yeah. Yup. Okay. Yeah. We're still wished actually we're still using them in 93 when, uh, you know, initial production for Michael Jackson had a jumbotron tall, skinny jumbotron screen next to a projection screen of the same aspect. Huh? It was not very smart because you couldn't match the brightnesses. Yeah. Even with a dozen projectors versus the jumbotron, you couldn't get the projectors quite bright enough. And we bought killed three or four projectionists trying to make that happen just because they'd be working 26 hours a day, trying to write in this other production factors as they could.
Speaker 0 00:27:21 Huh. Wow. Man. History is so I mean 40, if you think about the history of our industry, I mean, it's, it's call that 40 years. Um, and the advances that's amazing. I mean, we can now throw up led walls in ours that are the same size and take up half a third of the space and weigh half as much. And it's it. It really is cool. And I can honestly say I'm really glad I came into the world of video after three chip DLP projectors square created. Um, you know, my first, my first experience was like digital projection. AGVs five DVDs. So like 2000, 2001. Sure. Um, and those were like the $80,000 projector at the time for eight minutes, the price,
Speaker 2 00:28:23 The initial price point rarely changes. I mean the GEs were a hundred grand a piece and you still have to buy your own two by fours to brace them up the amount of millions of dollars a year that I braced up with a random two-by-four I shutter to think, wow, but you'd bring it up, bring a whole box of just spare shim stock. Just be able to make the shots every day.
Speaker 0 00:28:50 The $2 two by four, that holds up the a hundred thousand dollars projector. That's every day. What a man, all of this technology changing, thinking about, um, the different execution ways that you have to do things on site. What are you looking for onsite when you're at a gig? When you're at a show, let's say it's a new crew and you're on your first one or two tour stops. What are you looking at? What are you assessing? How are you changing or adjusting things to make sure that you get into that rhythm? You know, cause you're like, all right, we got 10 weeks, 12, 18 weeks to 12 months of this thing. Um, you know, what are the critical things you're looking at to help manage that and then to, to do it. Um,
Speaker 2 00:29:39 The first few shows your first few ins and outs are always an exploration of what the process is going to be. The design often dictates the process. I mean, you've got to build trusses, you've got to get them up, but on the way, um, the production decides if they want to do a rolling stage or do a house stage. And as to how you get that done, audio has got to get in and up. Yep. Whatever video elements you're doing, whether it's an upstage wall or whatever screens or whatever else you're doing, things need to go in a lot pre-session progression so that you're, um, getting things done. And you're not, nobody's always standing around waiting for something to happen. Constant forward motion is the goal and you need to stand back and look at the big picture. This is a great standard stage manager makes all the difference where they can read how to maintain forward progress without impeding one department or another. And what it means from a crew point of view often is that you're spending a lot of time on standby, but it's not standby. I'm going to wander away and go next door to the mall. It's standby and watch what's going on in the floor so that you can jump in when your opportunity it presents itself.
Speaker 0 00:31:07 Yeah. A hundred percent.
Speaker 2 00:31:09 So, um, if you're going to, once again, you gotta be a big, big picture guy and look at the whole production and go, okay, well, what could I be doing while I'm waiting for the lighting trusses to begin to rise? And I go out and build front of house, is there a way I can, do we have a rolling stage? Are the things that I can build on top of the stage before it rolls in? So that once the stage rolls into place, it's all about backline and, uh, getting ready for soundcheck. Yeah. It's really become very apparent in the last couple of years with the K-pop bands coming over that these guys are not there, their viewpoint on production, as I would like to, I need to have rehearsal time before we get to check. So I would like to start my dance rehearsal at one in the afternoon. Who, what time do you need to start loading in? You have the floor ready for me to start rehearsing at one. Wow. And are there that day always a challenging,
Speaker 0 00:32:21 Well, in the set and the setups are giant in some, in some respects. So I'm guessing you're looking at 4:00 AM, 5:00 AM, load ins. At that point,
Speaker 2 00:32:29 It makes a whole different aspect. You have to have to look at the production completely differently in order to give these people the time they need on stage. Yeah. Wow. Interesting. Because if possible, they'll find somebody else to do the job.
Speaker 0 00:32:46 Yeah. So then you got to figure it out. And the great thing though, about doing the same thing day in and day out is it gets faster and it gets quicker and it gets, I mean, that, that really is truly one of the things I loved about touring was that doing the same thing day in and day out is that it's like every day it feels like, Oh, we're two minutes earlier than yesterday. And you compound that over the course of, you know, 10, 15, 20 shows. And all of a sudden you're like, wow, first show, we didn't finish loading until four 30 and we're just squeezing and soundcheck. And now it's two o'clock in the afternoon and you know, production, manager's going to play golf because you don't have the band there. And you're, you know, you don't open doors until six 30, seven o'clock or whatever, you know? I mean, it's right.
Speaker 2 00:33:26 How many times you started to wear thinking I'm two guys short, I'm three guys short on this crew. There's no way we're going to be able to get it done in time. And, um, one real, um, telltale of the quality of your crew is how long the shakedown starts, how long the shakedown takes before you really start shaving time, both on your end and you're out and things become when you're not, you're not still sweating at doors to get all your stuff working. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:34:02 A hundred percent. I'm I'm with you on that. And having gone through the process with you, um, it's a great way to watch yourself evolve and, and thinking through the process and thinking through that big picture and really helping everybody to look at. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:34:16 That's why no one thinks the same way every day. And it's completely to your advantage and everyone else's for that matter and yeah, it's worth. But that being said, the fastest is not always the best way that I am spending. The second half of my career fighting against the old line, that the shortest line between the sort of distance between two spots is a video cable. Yes. We're not, we're not stringing laundry here. You need to settle down and follow the path. Take the time to lay your cables in a manner that not only doesn't impede anyone else, but is makes it able for you to suss out a problem if something's broken. Yep. That was if you're just throwing stuff down in a mess and you're not dressing the cables out properly and not taking the time to make it neat. When you get a cable failure, mid show, something breaks, you don't want to be on your knees under the stage with a headlamp throwing cables over your shoulder, going what's this what's that what's this. You want to be able to find your own stuff all the way through. And that's a very hard learned lesson for a lot of people.
Speaker 2 00:35:31 Yeah. Being neat, taking the extra time to be neat, saves you time. It doesn't lose you time. Now
Speaker 0 00:35:38 Looking at all of the parts of a tour. The other side of it is how do you work yourself into a tour? As you know, you spend a lot of time, let me back up. You spend a lot of time working for Nocturne, but that still was partially freelance. I mean, you're, you're, you're, you're a contractor in a lot of ways, you know, the touring world is very different than like the world where it's, Oh, well I have a job and I go to work and I come back and every day is the same thing. I mean, you're constantly working to find work. Um, what, what are some things that you would do to, to find work as a video director, creating relationships, networking, you know, what are some things that you would do to, to help move yourself forward in that manner?
Speaker 2 00:36:27 You want to be somebody that the production would really like to have back on another, on a subsequent round. Yeah. It's, it's really about, um, maintaining a performance level, really a production manager. His greatest dream is to give you a task and be able to forget about it. Have total confidence that it's going to be accomplished and is not going to kick up any dust or cause other problems in the process. So if you can make it so that, um, basically they give you the brief on video and let you walk away and do what you do. And there's not going to be any issues that they're going to have to deal with. Next time it comes around, you're just making their job easier and they want you back because having you around makes you, that's why we got the Lincoln park job, because the guys were there before us, we're making a mess of things and the gear wasn't always working and the people weren't always on the case, trying to do their best to get the job done. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:37:37 Uh, I'm gonna set up better myself,
Speaker 2 00:37:41 You know, sat down with gyms and okay, what do you need? This, this and this very good. I'll let you know if there's a problem. Otherwise you're not gonna hear much from me.
Speaker 0 00:37:50 That's yeah. That's great. And yeah, you're right. Production managers. They just want the guys, Hey, do this. This is what we need to make happen. Okay. And it happens and it just works. Um, but that was always the great thing. And I, and I like having production managers that way, that don't micromanage, that they're not showing up in video world every 10 minutes asking you, are you doing this? Are you doing that? Did you get this? Did you get that
Speaker 2 00:38:14 Building that confidence does take time and experience with you and you can't expect people to have that kind of confidence in you on the first meeting. Yes, of course. It really needs to be demonstrated over time that a, you understand their vision B that if you're having a problem, you will definitely come to them and keep them posted about it. Another great production manager lesson I got early on was I can't help you with what I don't know about. Yeah. Because most production managers want nothing more than to see you succeed because that makes mutual success. Yep,
Speaker 0 00:38:54 Yep. No, that's right. And, and you're, that's I agree with you, Jim. Actually, Jim Digby helped me a lot talking about that. Um, you know, he always told me, he said all, I, I expect you to be a hundred percent by the time we start the show. And from that on, I understand that things happen. And if something goes wrong and I need to know about it, just let me know what's going on so that we can fix it as fast as possible. But we understand that equipment fails, led tiles sometimes stop working cameras have issues, lenses, you know, I mean, it's the road. It's what happens. And having a team of people that don't just get mad at everybody when something does go wrong, um, is a huge,
Speaker 2 00:39:42 He's the first person that the band's going to come to and go, Hey, some of the, screw it up. And he's got to have an answer for them right there on the spot rather than, Oh, I don't know. I'll go ask. Yep. No, at all, before we've even come to him and tell him what the problem is, it's more than just technical stuff. AB replacing tiles, making sure the lenses are right, this and that. Sometimes everyone contributes to the general atmosphere of a tour. If there's somebody that's always yelling and is always kinda mad about stuff, those feelings Telegraph through the whole crew and through the whole production. Yeah. Um, if there's an issue, everybody, you know, the fastest form of communication is telephone Telegraph tell a roadie, if anything is going on, the whole crew is going to know it in about 30 seconds. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:40:43 But if you've done your job, go ahead
Speaker 2 00:40:47 A night on LP. It was super hot night. There's a shed tour. We had, um, video underneath the deck on stage inside the set piece. And, uh, I think it was the bass rig, something wasn't working. It was 10 minutes to show. And there was a serious doubt about one of the band members gear was being worked on feverously and everybody was worried. It wasn't going to work. And the word had actually gotten back to the band that this thing was broke. So when we heard that the bands all nervous, that this thing isn't going to work, I'm sitting there with Mike Rowe was my engineer underneath the, the bunker. We called it in the back of the stage. That's about 96 degrees back there. It was thinking, so I look at Mike, I go, Mike, we're doing the show topless time, take your shirt off. So when the band comes out, take their places for stage, all worried about one of this piece of gear, not working. They all got to walk through the bunker and they see me in like sitting there doing the shirt, doing the show, ostensibly in the nude is complete distraction, forgot completely about the broken thing. Started laughing at us. Meanwhile, the backline guys get the thing fixed and turn the show into Olafur. And they went out and they had a great show. We all had a lovely time. And you took the picture. I think,
Speaker 0 00:42:16 Did I have the, I have the photo, at least two of them actually I'd say every so often when I was scanning back through my photos, I see, I find those and it just puts a smile on my face.
Speaker 2 00:42:27 That was a poll that was a total band distraction move to get them to quit worrying about somebody else's job and just go out and do yours.
Speaker 0 00:42:36 That's right. And if you do your job a hundred percent and something does happen, you can be confident in knowing that your secure, because you did that, what you were asked to do, and sometimes stuff just happens and there's nothing you can do about it. There are so many people that get afraid, Oh my gosh, you know, the led tile or that, that thing stopped working. I'm going to suddenly lose my job because one little screw up or one little thing happened.
Speaker 2 00:43:07 I've lost clients over bad tiles. I've lost clients over, over tiles that nobody could figure out how to fix it. And that last for three quarters of a show and we ended the show and it still wasn't fixed. And, uh, that was the last show we did for that client.
Speaker 0 00:43:25 And, and I can understand that I'm more talking about those times where you've done your job and you have a production manager who understands that when you're trying to fix something, you can fix it and you get it fixed. And that it was a hundred percent when the show started, but you still did your job to execute on what it was. And even though the show, wasn't a hundred percent, the effort to get it fixed, which you did succeed in is what happened.
Speaker 2 00:43:52 And you're very lucky if you're in a position where the stage of the production manager or the stage manager can afford to take that position, sometimes they're drill. You know, every, the, the attitude comes from the top of the production. The production editors is with somebody. And if, uh, they are, you know, there's a lot of producer die people. Whereas, you know, if you can't make this run, I'll find somebody else who does, there is no patience. Uh, so, you know, you can, you're particularly blessed when you're in a position where you have an understanding and a,
Speaker 0 00:44:29 And, and a little bit of grace goes a long way. I mean, that makes people work harder for you. Um, I mean, that is why I worked as hard as I did when I worked with Lincoln park for the years that we did. Cause I knew that you and Jim had my back and that I'd give a hundred percent every day, making sure everything was there and up. And if something did go wrong, we would fix it as fast as humanly possible.
Speaker 2 00:44:53 Got it. And you've got, you give a lot more Slack to the hardworking guy than you do to the guy says that, uh, is, uh, am I done yet? Yeah, my dining yet. Can I go to the bus? Will we still, we still working? What's going on?
Speaker 0 00:45:08 I exactly. Well, so with all the gear working every show, because that's the perfect world. Um, you know, when you're not having to fix problems, you're able to be creative. Um, yes. I understand creativity within problem solving, but on a show when you are, you know, as the director, you're creative, you're trying to create an experience for the, the, the audience. As you said, you're working for the audience. You're working for the person that's up in the nosebleeds. They paid 35 bucks and they're only image the best picture of the show is that video screen, when you're doing the same thing every day, how are you keeping that creativity there, that you can still deliver the same quality show, but it doesn't get mundane and boring after you've done it for the hundredth time. What ha what, what does that look like?
Speaker 2 00:46:02 Um, there's, it's like jumps in resolution. When you first go through rehearsals or you first go through the first set of shows with a group, you find cues that you hit in every song, be it solos, be a little drum, fill here, be it a move by the lead singer there that pretty quick say in the inside the first couple of three shows you find what those major hot points are and the log it's like staring at a picture. The longer you look at a picture, the more details you still picture, the more details you see. Yeah. And once you've been through this and everybody, it's, it's the whole thing is a team effort. It's not just about the director. It's about the camera guy about the engineer's shading. It's about the display guys, making sure the projectors or the led looks proper. But as you go through the evolution of a tour, the first break I find comes 15, between shows 15 and 20 you'll have gotten comfortable enough with all your regular cues that you're looking for, something to do in between those cues.
Speaker 2 00:47:19 So you'll have, you'll have a one night where everybody is starting to look for ways to fill in those gaps between cues. And they'll screw up a little bit and miss what they've been regularly doing the whole time and kind of you'll move you'll have you have a, not so great because boredom is set in, they're looking for other things to do other than, you know, and then you come back to the show after that and all of a sudden bang, you got 20 more cues in the show. Yeah, everybody's got the regular things. They hit now. They found something to fill those holes and that evolution, depending on how many shows you're going to do can happen three or four or five times down the road. So by the time you get to show 80, you started at show 15 with a hundred cues. You're at show 70, you've got 600 cues where everybody is still hitting there. They're still hitting the things. They're finding things in between the cues to hit. Yeah,
Speaker 0 00:48:17 Very cool. I like that. That's a, that's a great way to, that's a great explanation about that. Um, you know, the creativity within the industry that we, that we have, um, a lot of times I think people don't realize that there's just as much creativity on the technical side of things as there is on the artistry side as the artist that performing, you know, the person that's performing. Um, and, and we have to remember that going into this is that as people, you know, lighting is art, um, video gives that experience to people, especially those that are far away. And so I think creativity is incredibly important. Um, what do you like the most about being in the hot seat you chose to put yourself there? You know, someone at some point in time said, Hey, skip. This is you. Um, and you always use to label your chair, the hot seat. So what, uh, what you chose to be there. What brought you to that point? And what do you like about doing it?
Speaker 2 00:49:17 Um, it's all, everybody always, if you're not the director, you're a complainant about the director to somebody that's just the way life is. You know, everybody, if you're, you know, everybody can do things better. Yeah. Some can't when you get, when you finally get a chance to then the pressure is really on for you actually to execute it's I found, I enjoyed the pressure of having to execute more than having to keep my mouth shot, shut and watch somebody else screw it up. I mean, that's, you know, every, it's not rocket science. I mean, if you have, if you have a basis in how to compose a shot and you can, your communication skills are enough that you can teach what I call the pitch and catch to cameraman where they can leave a negative space on part of a frame for the next shot to fill. And they're not overstepping other and putting two mass shots on top of each other, if you can manage to communicate that in the process of a show. Yeah. Then once everybody gets the feel for that, you know, some people can see it. Some people can't see it. Sometimes you got to, you know, sometimes you get a carpenter on a camera who is a whizzbang camera guy, and sometimes they'd be better off with a hammer. Yeah, yeah. The option. Yep.
Speaker 0 00:50:57 I get it. What do you like the least about being in the hot seat?
Speaker 2 00:51:01 Um, or what don't you like? It's the, it's the dealing with people who aren't on that understanding side of things like we were talking about in the last subject, it's my way or the highway. And it's rather it's in my mind, all these things are collaborative projects and when it's good, I tell you and exactly that, then there's no collaboration going on that makes it difficult to want to Excel. Yeah. Uh, one particular artist, we, I don't know how we ended up on the tour because he really hates video, but we got told at the beginning of the run, all right. Oh, you got three cameras out in front. Just like the old time ed Sullivan show one in the middle one on each side where the whole show is going to be black and white until the last song. And this is the last conversation we're going to have.
Speaker 2 00:52:07 Goodbye. Not thank you. Goodbye. Just goodbye. So, so, okay. Um, you know, he was of the opinion that he could reach the back road just fine. He didn't need our help. Got it. And I don't know if his manager talked to him in to bring a video along or what, how we ended up there. And, uh, you know, we got, we got through the six or eight week run, had no contact with them from then on didn't have any, you know, come roaring out of the dressing room incidents from him because of something we did. Cause we did exactly what was asked of us. And, uh, it didn't, it didn't make any effort to get really creative in the middle of it because we'd already had our brief, this is what you do. And if he wanted to change his mind about what he wanted us to do, he'd come out and us, there was no,
Speaker 0 00:53:09 Yeah. It reminds me of another, of another specific artists we worked with when you and I were together that we had a semi similar experience with about this is how you're going to do it. And this is what it's supposed to look like. And that's that
Speaker 2 00:53:26 That's, you know, it's, it's the other half, the other side of the coin. It's not that uncommon. Really. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's part of the game, you know, it's not fun, but they're the ones paying the ticket at the end too. So guess whose name is on the marquee? That's right. That's right. So what we love the best, what we love, the least what's the toughest job you've ever done? Um, most grueling, I wasn't a director yet, but probably 16 weeks on a Russian cargo plane. Whew. Where we went around the world, we went from LA to Las Vegas, the wrong way around in 86 days or something like that. Wow. And, uh, with two Antonov, um, Antonov is a Russian cargo plane that can hold so eight or nine semis worth of gear free, loaded. So we would land, we would land at an airport, empty the planes into local trucks, go to the stadium, do a show, send the gear back to the airport, load our planes back up, have those who get on the cargo planes and fly.
Speaker 2 00:54:50 You know, they have a jump on a charter and a fly to the next city. And we, it was about four months. Wow. Went around the planet that way with various misadventures. Who was that with Michael Jackson? Wow. Crazy. That doesn't sound like a lot of fun, you know, it's the adventure it's certainly got your part to it. Um, they had a bolted down actual like little military style bunks in the upper portion of the plane for us to sleep on. So we actually got a lot more sleep than we would. It was like a giant bus in that respect. Yeah. But, um, the local trucks often left something to be desired. And uh, the company running this, um, freight airline, what was called a heavy lift, vulgar to neighbor, the European community, put it together right after, right after the USSR fell. And these planes, if they don't fly once a month, they fall apart.
Speaker 2 00:55:58 And these are some of the biggest cargo planes in the world. They're used to fly giant machine parts around the planet still to this day. So, um, we did a show in Southern Japan and the next stop was Moscow. We couldn't fly over China. So we had to an extra long flight North up above Japan and then across Siberia, we landed in Moscow and I'm taking planes and go to do a couple of shows in the stadium. And uh, many our production manager. We're getting we're midway through the second show. And Benny, the production manager calls the airport to the airport. Coordinators is, Hey, how are we doing? He going to be ready to start taking gear, uh, in about an hour, when we're we start sending stuff out of the airport, he goes, man, it's gotta be slow. We got a little bit of a problem. Um, so the, the booking office for this company was in London, but all the operations were wrong. Moscow, nobody in London knew anything about it. Nobody in Moscow would cop to anything but Morris, the airport coordinator went out to check our two planes that we at least for the four months exclusively and both planes, 20 feet, high, 18 feet wide, 140 feet long were full of Snickers bars,
Speaker 2 00:57:22 Actual millions Snickers bars. Wow. While we were on the ground for four days, they had done a little run-up to Amsterdam and come back. And there were four guys in a forklift that were at Russian speed unloading the first of these two planes completely with a 280 feet worth of Snickers bars.
Speaker 0 00:57:48 That's incredible. Did you guys get loaded that night?
Speaker 2 00:57:52 Oh yeah. There was a, there was a lot of candy on the tarmac. We get out there to, to help the load along. But uh, you know, it'd probably put us five or six hours behind, but five or six hours dealing with that, those two plans was pretty normal.
Speaker 0 00:58:09 That's incredible. That's a, that's a really funny story. That's awesome. Well
Speaker 2 00:58:15 Dog knows names Snickers in honor of the
Speaker 0 00:58:19 Yeah man. That's incredible. So what, what can I, the person listening that is wanting to look at video direction. They want to be a video director or something like that. What can they do to work their way to grow? I guess, into being able to actually fulfill this position on an excellent level when it comes to the touring or, or just the corporate one-off world?
Speaker 2 00:58:50 Well studying what other people do is a great start and understanding the motivation for using particular camera shots. I mean, you're telling a story. It's not, it's not just typewriter cut and dried stuff. You're trying to, I was so lucky that when I first started getting into video at a little video art house in San Francisco called video free America at, uh, a mentor by the name of skip Sweeney, who, um, dream was, he wanted to play camera in a rock band, treat the camera as a musical instrument where you are interpreting the sounds that you see, you're coordinating your motion to the pace of the song. You are, um, doing a zoom so that when you are, have made it to the tightest part of your zoom on the singer, and you can move off them just as their line ends. So being able to visualize that is a great start. Pre-visualization is huge for every point, whether, whether it's about the cut or whether it's about production as to how your day is going to go from the time they crack the truck's on. If you can, if you've laid in bed the night before and thought about each step of the day, um, you've got a better chance at, uh, getting through it smoothly and being able to pivot when the challenges we know will happen. Come up anyway. Yeah. Huh.
Speaker 0 01:00:38 Very cool. Um, great. That's a really great, you've always been so good at describing these things. Like sometimes I can't describe something that is very natural to me or very normal to me. And just listening to everything you're saying, it's so great to have someone that can actually really bring descriptive description to it. Um, yeah, exactly. Um, so wrapping up the last question I ask everybody on every show is, well, of course we're in COVID world right now out. Many people are doing work. There's definitely no tours on the road, but looking forward, we're going to go back to work at some point in time, we're going to go back out on tour. What are two things that the roadies, the touring guys, whatever they want to call themselves, by the time we get back to that point, what are two things that they can do that will help them be more gig ready? The next time they go back out on tour,
Speaker 2 01:01:40 Go. So if you're already in the business one way or another, find a way to add a skill or to improve your understanding of power. Maybe find a different if you're, if you're a video guy, maybe some simple media server stuff. There's a lot of, there's a lot of different kinds of media servers out there. Everybody doesn't always want the latest, greatest, most expensive thing. And if you can accomplish what their vision is for a better price, a of people will be very interested in that. Yeah. That both, you know, work on your skills, try to add a skill and, uh, think about, we know that the, uh, road job is 50%. You're doing your job and 50% getting along with everybody else and a check yourself for those skills as well. Is there anything I can do to get along better and really visualize it as a team play?
Speaker 2 01:02:51 I mean, for about two days, when everybody gets back to work, we're all going to be buddy, buddy. And then it's going to be right back to where we were before, where you're complaining about the guys, leaving stuff in your way and somebody's clogging of them. And, but, uh, and practice looking at the big picture of everything. I mean, that's, it's a, uh, being able to get out of your own corner of the world and try to see it from a holistic point of view is completely valuable for everybody. Because then you're, you're not only going to solve your own problems. You might even solve somebody else's in the process.
Speaker 0 01:03:28 Interesting. I love that three things for the price of two. I, I love it. Um, you know, skills working with other people, seeing the big picture, um, the three things you need to tour at the level that you've been able to tour at for so long. Um, hopefully
Speaker 2 01:03:51 I was going to come back with a budget. It's going to be a little bit, and we'll see who, who is still around. Who's willing to jump out of the Harbor. They've managed to survive and go back to this. Cause it's not an easy thing. And truly, if you don't love it, don't do it. It's too hard. Otherwise, if, if, if you're miserable on the road, for whatever reason, you shouldn't be there, go on yourself or anybody a favor. Yeah.
Speaker 0 01:04:20 There are plenty of other jobs, plenty of other gigs, plenty of one-offs plenty of other things, um, you know, going around and making everybody else else's life miserable because yours is, is never fun for anybody. So, um, that's awesome, dude. Well, Hey, thanks. Thanks so much for taking the time. It's always a pleasure. Um, the stories are great. Um, I personally like that one of the best things, because I hearing all these stories about where we came from, um, and learning from what we've done and where we've come from, I think is the greatest step forward that we can take.
Speaker 2 01:04:56 I've found as over time, I've become a bit of a historian on all this stuff. And because I've always taken such pride in this as a profession, this has never been a summer camp for me. This has always been something I've wanted to do from the get-go. And I've tried to inspire that in people along the way. Whereas if you're just here to try it out for a year and maybe I'll just do this and I'll go back to whatever I was doing, Astro nice, but I don't need you around. I'd rather, I'd rather take somebody who's desperately wants to do this and try to help give them the tools that they need to be great. And I've had a lot of great experiences with a lot of people, especially over the last few years, being a labor manager, I've put a lot of young people to work that are, want this in the worst way. And I've given them some great opportunities. That's awesome. If you consider running 28 projectors on Drake, a good opportunity, but I had that, that unscarred. So
Speaker 0 01:05:56 Yeah, I grabbed a, I actually grabbed coffee with Steve Bellfield in the middle of that whole thing. Cause he was out rigging for, um, rigging for that, for that show. And he said it was quite the challenge to get things done on that. It was just such a pain. It was huge.
Speaker 2 01:06:14 No, I did my last encounter with him. He was on a Dell and I was, I was in gotten some tickets. I was sitting in a suite like 80 feet above him and realized I was almost leaning over his work table off the side of the, throw it at him and get his, just get his attention
Speaker 0 01:06:33 From 80 from 80 feet. Oh my God.
Speaker 2 01:06:36 That little piece of popcorn. So it wasn't going to hurt from a long time.
Speaker 0 01:06:40 That's right. Well, awesome dude. Thanks for, thank you for taking the time. Uh, you know, it's been a bit of a longer episode than normal, but I loved it. It's a lot of fun. And uh, we'll talk to you next time. I hope you have a wonderful evening.
Speaker 2 01:06:52 Awesome Jordan. Thanks so much. Bye bye. Thanks.
Speaker 4 01:06:56 Last eight months in our lives have definitely not been easy. It's certainly been a challenge to figure out how are we going to navigate this timeframe? How are we going to move change, shift, adjust mindsets that have been ingrained for so long as you go forward through today, the rest of your week or your weekend know that there are others out there that are standing right beside you fighting the same fight you are working just as hard as you are to try and figure out a way to be better, to be stronger, to move on and get to the next phase of where we are. Get ready is about just that working together to find a better way forward. Thank you so much for listening and I hope you have a great day. <inaudible>.
