Speaker 0 00:00:00 The next episode of gig ready is here. I know you're excited, but before we get started, let me remind you of just a few things. Number one, value. We want to provide value to you. So please tell us, email us, message us on Instagram. Send us a DM, tell us how we're doing. Tell us how we can help you, let us know what you want to see in here so that we can get better. Secondly, if this podcast has been valuable to you, share it with somebody, tell a friend, let them know what you're doing, let them know what you're listening to because we are going to help as many people as we possibly can. I want to say thank you so much for the value that you provide each and every week as we supply more podcasts, more content and more exciting things for you to look forward to. I thank you for your dedication. Thank you for all the hard work you put in each and every day to become a better event professional, because this is the gig ready podcast.
Speaker 1 00:00:58 <inaudible>
Speaker 2 00:01:14 Good afternoon, everybody. Jordan Goodfellow
Speaker 0 00:01:16 Here, gig ready, excited to have our newest guest w personal friend known him for gosh, almost 20 years now, Joe Mack, the owner and lighting designer at more than light based in Portland, Oregon. Um, man, it's been a long time. Uh COVID of course has been really tough, but thanks for coming out. Thanks for taking the time to talk about auto shows and design. Um, today I'm really looking forward to it.
Speaker 2 00:01:46 Well, it's been far too long, happy new year, happy 2021 is this season too. Are we episode one, season two? Why not? Episode episode one, season two is just like the beginning of empire strikes back, right? Where we're going to get into the nitty gritty of gig. Ready? Exactly.
Speaker 0 00:02:04 It can be that, um, it's, uh, I haven't, I actually haven't even thought about episodes and seasons and things like that. Cause like, it's kind of like back when we used to gig, if you remember that, um, you know, there were only three types of days. There was a show day that was Christmas and Thanksgiving
Speaker 2 00:02:20 And that was about it. Um, so yeah,
Speaker 0 00:02:25 It's been a, it's been a wild ride for 10 months and um, you know, knowing that I think we're going to come out of this. Holy crap. We're there. I think that there's light at the other end of the tunnel. I was talking with some people just today that were saying, they're starting to see some pretty good movement and equipment being needed and gear, moving places and things like that. So, um, you know,
Speaker 2 00:02:47 Got my first official gig booked in December of 2021. So we're working this year at some point. Yeah,
Speaker 0 00:02:56 That's awesome. Actually, a phone call I had yesterday turned into a quote for an led wall for a job that I didn't even know existed. So I mean, it was a happenstance thing and I'm just thankful that something's happening. So it's good. Um,
Speaker 2 00:03:12 But how, how are you doing mentally, everybody? That's one thing I wanted to check in with everybody and just see how they're doing. You know, we just got done with the holidays. That can be a tough time for folks. Um, and uh, and just kind of the mental Headspace where's everybody at. Uh, have you checked in on your friends lately? Did you check in and see 'em they had a good Christmas.
Speaker 0 00:03:32 I try and check in with people as I remember, I will say that I'm not, I can, I will be the first one to admit I'm not the bestest of friends in the whole wide world in that, like, if I get my head, I'm like, I'm like the horse, you know, you get the blinders on and you're like, I'm going this direction. That's what I'm doing. Um, and then I come up and I'm like, Oh crap. I haven't talked to Joe Mack in like six months, Joe, we should do a podcast. Why not? Um, that, that's just how it happens, but, um, actually through the podcast. So this is episode 22 and, um, I've had a really great time of getting to talk to people that I haven't talked to in sometimes years. And we sit down and we just go through stuff, talk about what's going on, talk about their, you know, their expertise, what they do, how they do it.
Speaker 0 00:04:21 Um, but then just spend some time catching up. And it's been really good to see that I think overall, everybody, at least in my world is in a pretty good space. Um, being a business owner myself, I fight that, that game every single day. Um, I'm in the midst of some reading, some books and, you know, doing some other personal things that will help me to change my mindset and rotate what kind of the way I've been thinking about life and the way I've been thinking about business and work and whatnot for the last, I mean the last 20 years, um, because I've realized that where I am now, you know, my mindset now is not going to get me where I need to go next. And that's one of the big things for me that the pandemic opened up was the fact that there are so many inefficiencies that I allowed the pace of the work that we did to cover up.
Speaker 0 00:05:12 You know, we were always moving so fast that it was like, I'll deal with that later. I'll deal with that later. And now it's forced me to say, okay, you know, how am I going to deal with like the negative train of thought that my mind tries to push into my head every single day? You know, that, that downtrodden that like, man, I crap, I didn't do that. Right. Oh, I suck at that. Oh, I shouldn't like that. Non-stop beating that tends to take place. And how can I replace that with the mindset and the understanding that one we're here at 10 months, we're still alive. We're not dead. There's still a roof over the head. There's food on the table. We are incredibly blessed and, and we can move forward from here and we can grow and we can actually get better. The farther we go out of this than Everett allowing it to be a, so
Speaker 2 00:05:59 That's, that's exactly where I'm at too. You know, it's been a, a really challenging year. I had some health issues, uh, for, uh, a bulk of the year starting in the summer and I'm only just resolving them now. Um, but you know, things are, things are getting better. I'm feeling good, I'm feeling healthier and I'm on the path to healthier, um, body. Um, so luckily I had that time to, to really address those issues, head on and take the time to reevaluate what's important. Um, you know, it was a, it was a scary time didn't know, didn't know what was going to happen. And so, um, you know, on top of all of 2020 as well, you know, everything in the news and everything you're reading and seeing, and, and I'm in the epicenter of, of all the protests, uh, throughout the summer. Um, you know, and everybody's like, is your house on fire? And it's like, no, that's like three city blocks and that's about it.
Speaker 2 00:06:58 So, no, no, we don't have, we don't have people banging down our door. Um, and, uh, but it was, it's definitely a gut check, I think, um, all around, you know, just taking that time to really see what's important. And, and obviously, uh, you know, most of us find our family is important. Our, you know, our relationships, uh, the relationships that we really want to, um, embrace and, and, and take on to the next level. So I've, I've really, I've, I've almost forgot about work entirely throughout this, um, because I was able to just focus on my family and focus on us being okay every day. Um, and then, and then we got to the summer and, you know, we tried to make it as fun as possible. Um, despite not, you know, not being able to go anywhere or do anything. Um, but, uh, you know, we still, we did, we did like family meditation every night, which was rad, you know, um, we, we set the alarm clock to go off on all the Alexa's in the house and BBB, okay, stop what you're doing. Let's go meditate. We do that for, you know, 10, 15 minutes. And it just kind of put a, put a really good mindset moving into the evening and then we'd get, you know, good night's sleep and then start it all again. But, um, so that's, uh, that's how I spent my year.
Speaker 0 00:08:21 Yeah, that's, we are incredibly fortunate and I know that there are a lot of our brothers and sisters that have had a much more difficult time than, um, than where we have been. And, you know, I've been talking to a lot of people that have thankfully been able to give and help and, and provide assistance to people who need it. Um, you know, there's been a lot of really great stuff. That's come out of this. I know that music cares and live nation did a bunch of stuff. And, um, you know, really to see some of those things spin up has also been great as people are working hard to find their way again, and to see where we're going to go.
Speaker 2 00:08:58 And another thing that's really been fantastic is all the organizations that have popped up from, from this weather weather, uh, it's a local organization. So like there's a Portland music organization that popped up and they've been a resource for information. There's, uh, the live event industry of Oregon, a group popped up and, and I mean, they're just killing it and you know, it's on Facebook and it's on Instagram and things like that. So you're able to get those, those resources and those tools. And, and, and if, as long as you're willing to ask for help, which is the hardest thing as a, as a proud human being, uh, to do, um, as long as you're willing to ask for help, there's, there's people there for, uh, for you. And that's, that's been really a bright spot, I think, through all of this that gets lost in the noise of chaos.
Speaker 0 00:09:51 No, I agree. The live I've seen, like the live event coalition has been really strong in a lot of areas. They're just one of the many groups that have sprung up that have been working actually like in DC and advocating for our industry. I mean,
Speaker 2 00:10:04 We're one of the abandoned,
Speaker 0 00:10:07 Yeah. I mean, one of the things that we noticed through all this, I think we knew it, but nobody ever thought of it was that like, nobody really pays attention to us. Um, I mean, it's like the ultimate compliment in the grand scheme of things. If you think about it on the show, you don't want anybody to pay attention to the guys, you know, if they don't screw up, you know, it was a perfect show. Um, but now be, you know, I think in some ways, because of that, it actually, I don't want to say hamstring, dusk, but it, it, we had to do a lot of makeup work very quickly because there are so many industries that do focus on the lobbying. They focus on the advoc advocacy, they focus on all those things, but they, they came out of this and said, okay, you know, we know how to do all this.
Speaker 0 00:10:51 And then we had to start figuring it out. Um, you know, guys like Michael Strickland who had the relationships up front and he just dove right in, I mean, I can't say enough about the, the, the, just the amount of effort and money and, and movement he's worked to do just to get some of these things off the ground, the save our stages and the, you know, making sure we get the, the unemployment and the, the second round of PPP and all of the things that are probably going to be what helps keep, you know, up to 50% of the companies that exist in our industry, even a float, um, you know, and then being able to thrive coming out of this as we start to see more events come into Q1 and Q1 and Q2, I hope.
Speaker 2 00:11:37 Yeah, no, I, I totally agree. And, and, um, it's, it's been, uh, refreshing to see those leaders really step up and, and, uh, do their, do their part and bring us to the forefront of, of the consciousness of, of society. Really. Um, you know, a lot of people don't realize how much the airline industry relies on us. The hotels rely on us, the restaurants at local venues, uh, rely on us. And, uh, you know, it's, it's a, it's a great big gap when we don't have the ability to, to meet together. So it's, it's great to see that that people are, are noticing that.
Speaker 0 00:12:19 Now I'm going to stick to this topic for just a minute, but coming out of, kind of, as we come out of this, something that I was, I've been talking with a couple people about over the last two days, what do you think the labor labor market labor situation is going to look like as we kind of emerge from the dark, if you will, um, coming out into Q2 and Q3,
Speaker 2 00:12:41 You know, I actually just listened to your podcast with Chris today about that very subject. And I really liked some of the points that he was bringing up about how, uh, the 10 hour day may not be the right fit, uh, coming out of this, it might be a 12 or 14 hour day only because of the wash-up and the social distancing that's going to be required and trucks being taken, taking longer to come out. I'm a big fan of the show, by the way. Um, I've listened to all the podcasts I've loved. I take something out of every guest I've taken at least one nugget from every guest. And I, and so, um, I think maybe you should do a recap, uh, you know, do like bundle in all the kind of desk points from each show. That's a great, great idea. But as, as many have said, you know, coming back is going to be a fade, not a switch.
Speaker 2 00:13:35 Yeah. And, and I think that fade is going to be, um, scary at first for a lot of folks because they're, they, you know, you think you're going to go straight back to what we were doing before, and it's not going to be that it's going to be different. Um, but I think the key to anybody being successful in this business is just to be flexible. You know, if, if, if you can, if you can Zig to the changes of, uh, a changing market, you know, you're always going to succeed. If you're stuck in your ways, you're gonna, you're going to drown. I mean, um, but I think, I think once we get going, there's going to be such a, um, a large need for events to, to just cleanse the, the, the mental, um, challenges that we've all dealt with. And I think we're going to get hit like a tsunami.
Speaker 2 00:14:36 I think we're going to be overloaded with events and, and, uh, it's going to be hard to find those, those great people that you always want. So one of the things I'm looking to do over the coming months before the summer is to initiate partnerships with other, uh, firms, uh, other lighting design firms, other LDS out there that are freelancers and just line, you know, align ourselves together to have a plan so that when you get overloaded, you know, you've got somebody who's got your back and can take that, take the reins on sh on a show, if you're, if you're completely slammed with four or five different shows. So
Speaker 0 00:15:19 That's a great idea. I think that, uh, I think we're going to need some things like that. Cause I agree. I think there's going to be a giant labor shortage. And couple of the business owners I've talked to kind of see it coming down Broadway, but at the same time, realize there's nothing that we can do about it. It's not like we can spin up new people immediately and say, Hey, we know this is coming back in October and we're going to have 30 shows that we need right now. And we're you, if you can know how to run an E two and a D three and an <inaudible> and then if you can do this and you're boom, um, it's unfortunately I have a feeling that there's going to be some instances that are going to continue from pre pre COVID, where it's the, Hey, we just need a butt in the seat and hope he can do the job.
Speaker 0 00:16:04 And, um, and my hope is that those that are still in the industry, um, will one fight against that because that will just make a show suck, frankly. Right. And then, but also take the time. We still have time to learn and to train, everybody went, you know, April may were going crazy. Like there was 10,000 webinars a day of how to learn how to use every single thing that existed. Um, and now it's basically gone, gone completely away. Nobody's even looking at it anymore. And I think that helping, you know, taking the time that we have now and, and moving up to another level, whether that is, you know, there are still houses, gear, houses that have gear that they'll let you come in and touch it. I mean, when you come in by yourself and you just do your thing, like you're in a warehouse all by yourself, why the heck not sit down with a lighting console or an <inaudible> or a piece of gear and just mess with it? I I'm pretty sure, like I know for myself, like I would let anybody come in and Denver, you want to sit down with an <inaudible>. You want to sit down with an Aqua and you want to sit down with this piece of gear, that piece of gear have at it. I'll have my guy set it up, put it in a corner for you and away you go.
Speaker 2 00:17:15 Absolutely. And that, you know, that, that also shows those vendors, you know, who, who the, who the go getters are, who the, who, the people that really want to work, um, are, I've always lived by that mindset that, um, uh, I heard a great story about Jay Leno once that, uh, his very first job was at an auto dealership because he loved cars so much. He wanted to work at this auto dealership. So he, he kinda like kept calling, kept calling, kept calling him. They ignored him. So finally he just shows up with a bucket and sponges and rags, and he starts washing cars. It took him about three days before somebody finally, I actually approached him and said, like, who the hell are you? And he says, hi, I'm Jay Leno. I'm your new carwash boy. So he actually just showed up and they hired him on the spot and he became, he became their carwash guy.
Speaker 2 00:18:12 And I love that. I love that mentality because if you, you know, if you are focused on something that you want to do, whether it's be a Lang designer, be a TD, being a stage manager, whatever, go do it. Don't let anybody tell you, you can't do it. And, and you know, if you're, if you're motivated and you, you spend every day working towards that goal, if you're, goal-driven, you're going to get there, how are high water you're going to get there? Yeah. And so, so, you know, I've always lived by that model and, and any time I needed to learn a console or whatever, I would just show up. You know, I remember I started here in Portland at Hollywood lights, the lighting design firm I used to work with. And, um, the first week I was there, I didn't have any, I was only working part time.
Speaker 2 00:19:01 So I only had a couple of days work. And I asked the, the shop manager, I said, Hey, I noticed you, you guys got those new Max's consoles. Um, would it be okay if I came in next week, you know, and started working on them and they looked at me kind of bug it, like, yeah, sure. Okay. Whatever. Well, I spent an entire, like two weeks of time off on my own, up in a thing with headphones in my ears. And I taught myself the desk. And like a week later they had a show and they were like, Hey, Oh, wait, you're a programmer. Right. Oh, let's, let's use you on this show and let's take the max out. So it was the very first show we did it, um, on that, on that desk. And so, um, just, just showing the initiative really will always take you to a, another level, um, because people want people with passion. Yep. If you're unmotivated, you're the last person that's going to get called. Correct.
Speaker 0 00:19:56 And if you're only motivated by what you can get out of it, I find that that is like the next level of someone who just, they're not the first person that's going to get called. They're not the person who's going to be the, the top of the list. Um, just money is going to be interesting coming out of this because there's been a lot of people that haven't been able to make money for the last bit of time. And, and, you know, some people are gonna say, well, I just got to lower my rate so that I can get something. Um, and I really hope that that doesn't happen. Uh, there are going to be a lot of people that are going to try and take advantage of that. I've already had companies try and low ball me on stuff for shows. Um, you know, I had a guy come in that, uh, there was a $20,000 dance competition that was supposed to happen next month.
Speaker 0 00:20:44 And he came in and he was like, well, you know, these other people did it for, for 14,000. And, you know, it's because of COVID, you know, they just had to have the work. And I, and I said, I'm sorry, man. I'm wanna, I can't, if I do that the first time I do that, as much as you say, it's a, one-time only, you're going to come back next time and ask for the same thing. And I just, I can't, we can't afford as an industry to do that. We can't drop it to the floor and then expect that somehow next time it's going to come back. Once you set precedent, precedent is set and that's just the way it is. And we have to live by that. And I've turned stuff down. I mean, I tell people, I say, listen, you expect a level of service from me that is not run of the mill.
Speaker 0 00:21:26 It's not mundane. It's not the next big box alphabet letter that comes along. You expect the service where you call me. And I pick up the phone and I answer the phone and I answer your, and I answer the problem. And I fixed the problem on the phone. You don't wait for a call back. You don't wait for someone else to get back to you someday, you know, in 24 hours. But instead it just it's done. Um, and that level of service requires a certain amount of financial commitment. And some people don't want that and that's okay. I'm not going to fault them for it. But I hope that coming out of this people realize that the service is going to is going to need to be to the next level for us to be able to continue and take this industry where I think it needs to go
Speaker 2 00:22:10 Well. And I think you hit it right on the head by setting. You know, if you, if you lower your rates, you're setting a precedent that you are going to then have to dig yourself out of later. Yeah. And that's not, that's not a place any of us want to be in, you know, um, I've always lived by the rule that you should know your worth and don't ever compromise on that worth to anyone. Um, because you spent, you know, 10, 20, 30 years to get to this place of, you know, educated study and, and, you know, tons of work to get, to get to that position. And you don't want to give that away. Nope. The only time I ever find myself doing that is if it's a large client that I do, you know, tons of shows for, and they come to me and say, Hey, this one is a low ball. Um, can you give me your buddy rate? You know, we'll fix it on the next one. Yeah. And so, so in that instance, you know, I'm able to, to still play and do, to do what I do at a high level. Um, even though I may not be getting compensated in that, in that way, because, because I know it's paying for itself down the road. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:23:20 And then that brings up the next part of what I've, I've talked to a couple of people right now where it's being a person of your word. And if you say you're going to do something like that, you say, we'll make it up on the next one. Then that's what you actually do. Um, I've had some very unfortunate conversations with very good friends who have been, uh, who've been steamrolled by other companies in the last six to eight months on commissions and other things that they were told and even put in writing that they were going to have. And then they were basically denied when it came time for the check to come due. Um, and I think a lot of that comes from the fact that I get it. People are strapped for money, and they're trying to figure out how to make this work.
Speaker 0 00:23:59 But at the same time, it's like, your word is your bond. And you, if you say, you're going to do something regardless of how difficult it is, one in you should have upfront thought about the consequences of what you agreed to. And number two, um, if that's what you say you're gonna do, then that's what you need to do. And, and I've been put in situations where I promised something and we had to deliver it even at, at my cost and my detriment. Um, and, and I hope coming out of this, that a lot of the owners and a lot of the people who are the, the labor brokers and the people that work on this will do what they say. You know, they'll come out on, let's say, yes, this is what we're going to pay you. Or this is the agreement we're making and we're going to stand by this regardless.
Speaker 0 00:24:40 Um, you know, I think we've seen, and I'm sure that we can, all, we all know the name of the company I'm thinking of, but they basically closed up shop and hosed a whole bunch of freelancers because they didn't want to pay any money out and left them all on paid closed. It started up a new business in an, in another state, under a completely different name and basically left, you know, left everybody high and dry. And, um, you know, I'm, I could do that too. I still have accounts payables sitting out there that I owe money to, to people. Um, but thankfully you, Hey, I know I'm going to pay it off. That's just the way that I am. I'm not going to cut and run. I'm not going to declare bankruptcy, buy my gear from myself at pennies on the dollar, and then start a new company. I mean, it's just, we're going to do the right thing, which is pay the debts that we owe pay the things that we know we're going to pay. And it might take time because of cashflow and keeping people on staff. But I will stand by my word and here I am, I'm putting it on audio. It's going to be out there on the interwebs. Now people tell it, Jordan, this is what you've said.
Speaker 3 00:25:38 There's no going back now. Nope, there's no going
Speaker 0 00:25:40 Back, but you know what, I'd rather be held to my word and my feet put to the fire than ever be called a liar. Um, and it just, yeah. Yeah. So I'm not going to rag on anybody specifically that this isn't the forum to call them out, but just an encouragement. I think that people need to know that you stand by what you say you're gonna do, and that you think we have a
Speaker 3 00:26:02 Caller on the line who wants money?
Speaker 0 00:26:06 Well, no, I mean, I will. Yes. I did have a, I did have a freight company that wanted to send me to collections in April and I had to have a chat with them. And, um, I was just honest with them. I said, listen, guys, this is where we are. And this again is where honesty comes in, just have the conversation upfront. And I said, listen, I said, you guys could send me to collections by the time collections is all said and done, I'm probably going to settle for 50 cents on the dollar. You're not going to get near what is owed to you right now. I want to make sure you get what is owed to you. Cause I know that that's what I committed to work with me to figure this out and we will make this happen. It is going to take a little while.
Speaker 0 00:26:42 I know that you want your money. I get that. And we're going to do everything we can to get it to you. But at this moment, our hands are tied both from just a direct, you know, mandate standpoint. Like we have been mandated that we cannot make money in our primary capacity and we have to figure out what to do. And so now we're moving to figure out how to do that. We'll get it. We just need time. And so, you know, it just that's what happens. So there you go. We're 26 and a half minutes in and we have,
Speaker 2 00:27:15 I haven't even yet talked about what we were going to talk about. I told you my nickname growing up was shut up, Joe. So we could be here for six hours,
Speaker 0 00:27:24 Dude. It's all good. And that is why actually, when I do these things, I don't book. I specifically don't book anything after them so that I can just finish it out because I mean, that's what we're doing. I mean, we're not just creating some sort of scripted rehearsed thing that people can be entertained by. My goal is to help people actually be able to be better than next time they go to do a gig. The next time they go to do something else, because I am a firm believer that our, our best gig or our gig we're judged on was not the gig we did three years ago. It wasn't the big rock show that we did it. Wasn't that tour that I did back in 2012 or 2013, it was the last gig that I did.
Speaker 2 00:28:08 And what was your last gig? What, what what'd you do just last, last,
Speaker 0 00:28:12 Man, I'd have to check my cat. Oh, you know what? My last gig was in November. So my last gig was a projection mapping job that we did at a house warming party in Atlanta and we'd know it. Oh dude, we nailed it. It was amazing. They loved it. They were blown away. The content guys just completely went out of their way and just knocked it out of the park. Um, and it looked so good. I had my buddy Wesley pop-up come in and he aligned the projectors and it was just, it was, it was outstanding. It was this huge, I mean, it was 130 feet wide by 40 feet, tall front of a house. And, uh, we lit the whole thing up and they just, it was dynamite. I couldn't have asked for a better gig. It was awesome.
Speaker 2 00:28:55 Awesome. My last gig, my last big gig was the Chicago. A lot of show. And then, and then shut down happened shortly thereafter. Got it.
Speaker 0 00:29:03 Talking about auto shows. That's where, I mean, great segue, Joe.
Speaker 2 00:29:09 We're back on track.
Speaker 0 00:29:10 Um, you know, auto shows are a very unique, um, beast. I can personally say I've never done one. I've never been a part of one. I was asked, in fact, in may of last year I was said, Hey, if the Detroit auto show happens later on this year, could we do a projection map dome? Yes we can. And then of course everybody went radio silent and nothing happened. So, um, you know, as a, well, okay, I've never been to a car show. I really don't know what it, so why don't you give me a quick recap of like, what is like, what is it what's, what are you, what are they attempting to do there? Just kind of a quick 30,000 foot view about,
Speaker 2 00:29:53 About 53 auto shows, uh, nationwide every year. Oh, wow. Um, there's basically one, maybe two in every state. Um, there's a, a shows, uh, a kit shows B kit shows and seek, it shows, uh, the eight kit shows are your majors, your a LA auto show, your New York auto show, your Detroit, your Chicago. Um, and it actually CES is quite as growing as an auto show now, um, because of the, the, uh, auto, um, the, uh, AI of, of autonomous vehicles. Yeah. And so, um, basically each manufacturer sets up a booth space and it can be, you know, a small space with, uh, two or three cars, you know, uh, stand up some information tables, um, and a, and a back room that they can take, um, potential customers into the back and actually sell cars. Um, so if you asked me what I did, uh, what I do for auto shows is I'm a car salesman, but I don't wear like a leisure suit and smell like old spice.
Speaker 2 00:30:56 Right. So, um, but, uh, the bigger manufacturers can have up to, um, 30,000 square feet of booth space. Um, so it's, it's like, it's like a parking lot of cars. And, um, we, uh, it, the, the level of, uh, show depends on the attendees. The, um, the most well attended show from my understanding is the Chicago office show. That's the, that has the most attendees. Um, so, uh, the brand I do Hyundai and Genesis, so Hyundai being the, the consumer brand and then the, um, Genesis being the luxury brand of Hyundai. And so, um, I do two booths every year. Um, and we, our task is to not only light the cars, which is, you know, a no brainer, um, but is to like them in such a way that we give that consumer, that attendee an experience, whether it's when they walk in the door, the first thing they see is my booth because I've led it in such a way that it gets their attention.
Speaker 2 00:32:18 Um, and that could be something flashing, could be something, you know, just a, a subtle, um, directional lighting to get their attention. A sign might be lit. You might have a hanging sign that, uh, would be over a car. That's either won an award or whatever. Um, and it, it varies from, from venue to venue and show to, but, um, with each one it's all about cars on the ground. You can get in, you can, you know, honk the horn, you can push all the buttons. You can test, fit to see if the seat actually fits you. If you bang your knee on the steering wheel or whatever, um, you know, you can slam the doors and smell the tires or whatever, you know, whatever you're going to do, um, to, to pick your car. So ultimately we start out, uh, for the press days, there's, there's usually, uh, two days of press for the majors.
Speaker 2 00:33:12 And, uh, there might be three depending on, on the show. Um, and that's when we, we launched brand new cars. That's when they, you know, those concept cars that are worth millions of dollars or whatever. Um, and it's, you know, some guy coming up talking about the car, talking about their direction, that they're going in their past sales, yada yada, yada, and then flash, flash flash, play the video and revealed the car camera. Camera's clicking, clicking, clicking, clicking, and they talk about the car a little bit more. And then boom, you're done. The car gets completely covered by people taking close-up photos so that they can put it on, you know, whatever publication they're there representing. And, um, and then that's the end of the day. That's basically 15 minutes I just talked about.
Speaker 2 00:34:08 So it starts way, way, way, way before that months before for that little 15 minute window, um, for the press. Um, and the booth is even before that. So we, we start the process from my, my standpoint as the boot designer. Um, I get the call from the, uh, the booth design firm. So it might be like Darnell ski or EWI or GPJ or one of those, and they get us a plot, a layout, you know, whatever. And then they give us, um, maybe like a brand expectations, uh, layout or, um, talk us through some new color way they really want to highlight. Um, and they give us, they give us a direction to, to go. Um, and it's up to me to make that vision, that, that brand vision that they've created, uh, into reality. Um, so we'll, we'll take, uh, we'll take their car layout. And, um, my first call after that is directly to the rigors because, uh, rigging is like the most important thing for an auto show because, um, there's a lot of logistical challenges for trucking drayage, labor lifts, power, um, that, that often get overlooked and, uh, can really burn you if you're not, if you're not careful. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:35:47 Got it. So riggings the most important, remember? I mean, yes. Especially from a drayage standpoint, rigging is also heavy, which it can be, uh, interesting on the pocket book. So they come to you, they're talking to you, how do you manage that project from start to finish? Like, how do you see, you know, from the moment you get that phone call, boom, you hang up the phone, what's your first thought, and then what do you, what, how do you progress from there? And then manage that project all the way until you hit that, hit send on the final invoice when, when it's done.
Speaker 2 00:36:23 So typically I actually get hired by the lighting vendor because the lighting vendor gets hired by the booth a designer. And then there's a brand, there might be a brand, a brand design firm that is managing the expectations, and then there's the auto manufacturer themselves. So there's a lot of, a lot of cooks in the kitchen. And, uh, and I have to answer to all of them really, um, in several ways. But, um, but ultimately I can talk to any one of them without, you know, any repercussions or any issues. So, so it's a, it's a very collaborative effort, which, which makes it, um, fun and I'm a people person. So, uh, so working with several ideas and concepts is, is always a good way to start. So we take that, we take that vision and I start putting pen to paper after I have confirmed the rigging points.
Speaker 2 00:37:24 And you can, you can ask me later about my worst gig and I'll tell you that perfect. It starts, it starts with the rig and yes, it does so important. Um, and I will work with, uh, my lighting vendor to find out, um, a, if I can get the pictures that I want, um, over the past five years, I've worked to get to an all led rig. Um, cause then you don't have burnouts and the heat is less. And so you don't have fixture failure, uh, because of that fact. And so this, uh, 2019 was the first year I had an all led rig on both my rigs, which was fantastic. So, um, the, uh, the guys that at CT, uh, Chris <inaudible> and Ian Dobson, uh, and Matt Cochran are, are awesome. They, they actually went to elevation and had them develop a auto par, uh, that's all led engine and, and they're, they're just great. They're fantastic. These wash, um, five 75 wash fixtures, so saving, you know, saving on power, save it on heat, saving on tons of things, um, and, and ultimately sustainable from an environmental spam standpoint, for sure.
Speaker 0 00:38:44 Just turn it on and let it run for 20,000 hours. And then eventually it'll stop working.
Speaker 2 00:38:49 Well, see I program on and off and off every day. Well, back in the day, back in the day when I first started, you know, we'd be, we'd have those auto parts that were all hard source and you'd let them burn for them for two months, you know, because, because the last thing you want to do is have to restrike it and find out it doesn't come back on and then you've got, it's going to cost you a boatload to get all the rigors and Oh, for sure. Lifts and things back on the floor
Speaker 0 00:39:18 Before they were laser projectors and you'd leave, leave projectors on overnight. So you didn't get lens shift and you didn't get any of the issues that you'd have from the heat and everything else. So I, I get it. Uh, so, all right, so you got your, you got your vet, you're the vet you're part of the vendor, I guess. So you're the lighting vendor team, you know, the fixtures you want, you've already talked to the rigors, you know, your, your points, you know, where it's going to go, is this now where you say, okay, where am I putting everything so that I can properly light each one of these individual vehicles?
Speaker 2 00:39:51 Yeah. So car layout is really tricky because it always changes. It can be really frustrating at times, because I know after version one, I'm going to be on version two in a matter of weeks because of, Oh, no, we want, you know, several meetings happen and, Oh, we want to put that car over here. Now I'm going to put that car over there. And so what I ultimately do is I build the rig without the trust to start, I put all the lights where they need to be to light the cars the way I'm supposed to. Um, and every, every brand is different. Some of them are really steep because they want to see the curves of the car. Um, some of them are really flat because they want it really bright and the color to pop back at you. Um, and so taking all of that into account, I have, uh, templates in Vectorworks based on those models, whatever, whatever, uh, version they want, if they want real steep lighting, then I use that template and I put it on top of the car.
Speaker 2 00:40:53 I dropped my lights where I need them. Um, and then, then I kind of step take a step back after I've done that and figure out where I need to land the trusses to be, to be the most effective of both motors and rigging and trusses. Uh, so, so that we're not wasting, uh, cause I've seen, I've seen, uh, some auto show boosts that like, there'll be like 200 feet of trust for one fixture at the end. And it's like, wow, that's really wasteful. But, um, so I, I try to be as efficient as possible when I'm designing it and always taking into account that it's always subject to change too. So I I'll try and build the trust as in such a way that, um, even if they were to change them on me, I know I've got remedy there, slide the fixtures around or do whatever instead of having to completely redo all the rigging and everything. Um, cause that, that does happen.
Speaker 0 00:41:52 So do you crap? The question I had just flew out of my flew out of my brain. Um, so, Oh, does each car, so like Hyundai Sonata Hyundai Elantra, hun does each one of those have a different brand manager and a Brit different marketing team that like is coming to you saying, Hey, we want this car to look like this.
Speaker 2 00:42:17 No, it's there one directionally the, yeah, it's, it's the same brand from, for both Hyundai and Genesis. And there might be a couple of different people that, that might have an opinion on it. And you know, I'm always willing and open to listen to, to whomever's speaking to me because again, half the time you don't know who some of these people are. And so you just have to assume they're the CEO and you say, yes, sir, no, sir. Yes, ma'am no ma'am and try and figure out how, and then obviously you're going back to your initial client and say like, Hey, is this really a direction we want to go in? And they'll say, Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, okay.
Speaker 0 00:42:54 Yeah, because I know that I've, I do a bunch of work for a well pre pre pandemic did a whole bunch of work for Anheuser Busch and they have all of their brands. And so every different type of beer has a completely different team. I mean like vastly different and everything that they want to do all at the same show is like, okay, these guys have this 45 minute rehearsal. These guys have this, these guys have this. And then they want everything to look completely different every single time. And there's not like one person directing it.
Speaker 2 00:43:23 My, my biggest client is an athletics company here in Portland. I can't name them, but, uh, they're the, exactly the same way. They have a lot of brand managers that that will, uh, indicate at the 11th hour that it's time to make a change or that's not what we wanted. Or I did an entire show one time, um, two days of programming, uh, you know, couple of hundred Sharpies. Uh, and, and we got, we were five minutes to doors and I got told, okay, so we don't want to see anything but white and yellow.
Speaker 0 00:44:01 Oh,
Speaker 2 00:44:03 Oh gosh. So, so we took, we took, uh, we did a lot of replace record replacer cord, replacer chords to make that a reality, um, in, in a matter of seconds. But, uh, yeah, so, so being married to the idea of a design is not the best option in my world. Uh it's it's always, always subject to change. So, so again, being enabled to be flexible and, and move on about your life is, is the way to be right? Yes,
Speaker 0 00:44:37 Sir. Yes. Ma'am yes, sir. We go,
Speaker 2 00:44:40 We go. Um, but, uh, but they, you know, they also do give me a lot of creative freedom. They don't rarely get in my business unless it's something that really needs to be addressed. Um, cause one of the, you know, um, the way it auto show works, the timeline after I gotten everything rung out, I do all the patching and all that stuff, um, in pre-visit at home. Um, but once I'm on site, uh, it's all about programming. Like it's all about making sure the rig works 100%. That's day one day two is prepping all your focus because for the, for the next three days, press is going to be in your way and, uh, and crates and like there's no cars yet. So I, I literally focused air for two days until, until the cars come in at the 11th hour, because press will be onsite doing their thing.
Speaker 2 00:45:37 They reveal cars, I'm just handling the booth, all the properties for the booth and everything else. And, and then as soon as press is over, that's when the car is actually come in. Got it. So, which is also why working on auto shows is like being in a meat grinder because you go from this morning's mornings, mornings, mornings, and then you literally flip your schedule mid, mid gig, and you go nights, nights, nights, nights, nights, doing all the changeovers as they, as they're adding cars as they're adding properties. And, um, it can be, it can be pretty taxing on the body and, and, uh, you know, the sleep, but yeah, I usually give myself a week after to get over it
Speaker 0 00:46:22 For sure, man. Wow. So you've got, so you work out the trust, you make it economical. You make it look, you know, as close as you can with the rigging and stuff. I mean, buildings, we know hard points. It's like, can I put something over there? No, you can't. There's nothing to put it on. Um, so then talk me through from there. So I guess from there then final approval on a design that continues to change for the next two months. Um, is that
Speaker 2 00:46:51 Yeah, it's, it's, it's usually just like, Oh, a new drawing came out and, and I'll spot it in the Dropbox or the box and, and import it in. And then I wait for the phone call because a lot of times they'll do a drawing as a, we want to see if this is the direction we want to go from where we were. So you can't always just assume that, Oh, the new drawings in the box, it's time to go. You have to, you have to make sure that, that it's, it's, uh, it's time to make changes because you know, all of that is change order billable hours, et cetera. Got it.
Speaker 0 00:47:23 For sure. Okay. So then talk me through after that. So you get to finalize design things, finally change, change, change. Hey, all right. This is what it's going to be to the best of our knowledge right now, until it changes again.
Speaker 2 00:47:37 What
Speaker 0 00:47:38 Is that like a week before you're leaving for prep? Is that,
Speaker 2 00:47:41 Oh no. That's, that's like a month that's because they have to usually get wet stamped by the building or the show management, um, rigging, you know, rigging drawings, weights, all that stuff has to be done and approved well in advance. And I've only had a few instances where we've had to do a wet stamped very late in the game, um, to, to get the thumbs up. Okay. So it's actually kind of nice because I've basically worked through the load in, in my head two months before we even start. And so that way, when, uh, if something were to pop up that load in and the Emmy calls me and says, Hey, you know where you have that trust, isn't going to work. Uh, because we always do a pre rig. Then the booth builders come in under us. So they, they pre-reg everything. We go up in the air and they, they, uh, the master electricians and texts, they all disappear for a little while. And then, uh, and then the booth gets built in under it, got it for a couple of weeks. And then, and then they come back right before I do and, uh, and get everything fired up.
Speaker 0 00:48:47 Got it. Okay. Um, so then you, so there's a month in there that includes, you know, Emmy time getting everything re patching console prep. Um, and then is it right into prep after that? Or is there, what else has happened in between, in that timeframe?
Speaker 2 00:49:06 Uh, I don't prep until they've left. Pre-rec got it. I don't, I don't prep my consoles until I have the actual patch from the MES. Um, and, and so typically I actually do it a few days before I leave, just in case when they fly back to get, you know, dimmer speech set up and they're patching everything in, Oh, crap, we put the wrong, you know, whatever. Um, we had to readdress that one. I basically, we catch all that at the end and, and we're not wasting our time on site. Got it.
Speaker 0 00:49:41 Okay. So then you're patching your console. You had onsite, I assume, grab your little USB stick and away you go.
Speaker 2 00:49:51 Yeah. I actually usually email it ahead ahead of time. Even better so that it's already in the desk before I show up. Got it.
Speaker 0 00:50:00 So it's so it's white glove, Joe. That's all right. I got ya. Sorry. I had to, I just,
Speaker 2 00:50:10 Actually, you have to be white gloves on auto shows because of the union rules and things. I get it a hundred percent. Yes. Excuse
Speaker 0 00:50:17 Me, son. I'll take care of that for you. No problem.
Speaker 2 00:50:19 I got yelled at for plugging in a space heater that I brought and I ran the cable out of my, and I got, I got yelled at that board. I was like, Oh, okay.
Speaker 0 00:50:31 Yeah. Yes. I totally understand. Um, so you're getting you fly onsite. You're there. Um, I know it's been a year since we've done this, so it might be tough to remember.
Speaker 2 00:50:42 I had to actually look at plots through members. So, um,
Speaker 0 00:50:48 What is your day to day looking like when you get, when you get on site? What's the, what is that?
Speaker 2 00:50:54 It's a, it's a lot of checking in with the booth managers, the guys building the booth and, um, just checking in on schedule because the schedule is constantly changing. Uh, you know, drayage and cars coming in is sometimes a bear because basically every booth has, is building at the same time and they all want their cars first. So, um, you know, uh, and, and having a clear space, having all of your crates out, uh, that kind of stuff. Um, it's, it's a Testament and patience and, and I guess I'm a glutton for punishment because I've done this for far too long, but, um, but yeah, it's, it's a lot of waiting around, but, um, the, the biggest thing that I could tell anybody that, you know, new to auto shows is to, to always be programming, always being updating, you know, anything that you can be working on, um, to, to help yourself because those changeovers are brutal. You know, you're getting, you might be getting, uh, 25 to 30 cars in one night and that's just one booth and you have to go do another one too. Yeah. So, um, so, you know, you're focusing up to 400 lights in one night in, in a, in a short amount of time from 12 to 6:00 AM or something like that. Oh, wow. Okay. And so, so any properties that can be prepped, any, anything you can do to alleviate that, uh, the, the fine tuning stuff, um, is the, is the way to go
Speaker 0 00:52:29 And you're just creating a set it and forget it. Co look here. There's nothing, that's really active stuff
Speaker 2 00:52:35 At times. Um, there, there are, uh, brand activations where they will, um, have like a game show to interact with people. They'll, they'll do, you know, every, every hour on the hour. And we've, we've created, um, little, uh, remote triggers that they can, the host can actually fire the lights and video and audio and all that from one, one, uh, garage remote, actually. That's awesome. Yeah. Low key fob. That is rad. I love that. Yeah. And it's, you know, it's all value and <inaudible>, and then it settles and then there's a turn off a button and they, they it's pretty cool.
Speaker 0 00:53:17 Is that like a DMX command that triggers a console? Or is that just independent or
Speaker 2 00:53:22 Like it's using, it's actually using the remote inputs on, uh, on the ma okay. Yeah. You can just set the pins and then, uh, go into remote inputs and assign a Q stack, uh, to fire from that remote input. Oh, cool. Anytime it sees go, it fires that queue list and then the basic, yeah, it's really, it's really a basic system. Okay.
Speaker 0 00:53:48 So it just fires go, go, go. And you script it every piece.
Speaker 2 00:53:53 No, it could be whatever. It can be an off command. It can be, it can be whatever. I mean, you can trigger time code. You can trigger. We had at one time where it was like, it was triggering the D three and the D three was actually firing the lights and the audio. And then it was like this reverse engineered thing. Um, yeah, it was pretty pretty wizardly.
Speaker 0 00:54:12 That's cool. So you've got this through now, you're into overnights. So you did the daytime kind of look, see you see it. All right. Here's where the car is going to be. I know it's going to look awesome. I've focused as best as I can. Boom. You flip, you go to overnights now you're actually like, you're getting cars, you're making sure that each car, you know, how, how are you focusing the lights cause they want, I mean, the car is as shiny as shiny can be. It's not like they're putting mat coats on the outside of a car anytime soon. For the most times they're covered,
Speaker 2 00:54:46 You're focusing on while they're covered. So you're just hoping that it looks great until that cover comes off. And then it's a quick update, you know, first thing in the morning. Okay. Yeah. They're there because the, the auto show environment there's so much sawing and sawdust and just toxic, your, your burgers are terrible at the end of another show. I'm not going to lie.
Speaker 0 00:55:08 Yeah, I got you.
Speaker 2 00:55:11 And, and so the cars get completely filthy every night. And so they're just constantly cleaning them. I feel really bad for the, for the crew that has to do that every night. But, um, yeah. And, and I work around them, they work around me. They might be landing cars literally as I'm focusing on them, just because, you know, we've only got two hours left before doors and they just, they just landed the last car. Uh, and I still have to do the other booth. Yeah. So, um, thankfully, thankfully the, the, the other booth is small enough. It's usually about five cars. Uh, sometimes seven, I'm able to kind of quickly jump through that one without an issue.
Speaker 0 00:55:52 Super speed programming skills. Um,
Speaker 2 00:55:55 It's actually my remote iPad. I, I do more programming on my iPad on another show than I do anything on the console. Oh, wow. Okay. So, so I just to remote in and, and, uh, and control it. So that way I don't have to be at the desk or roll it around. Cause you know, there's, there's a lot of hard floor that they don't want stretched and run over with, uh, with a road case. So you get the big iPad with a lot
Speaker 0 00:56:21 Of real estate. Uh, I actually
Speaker 2 00:56:24 Have both, I have, my remote is actually the iPad mini, but my, my iPad pro I use, uh, as a sidecar or I use it for Photoshop stuff or whatever.
Speaker 0 00:56:35 Nice. Um, so, all right, so you get everything programmed, boom, your hustle and hustle and doors are in 10 minutes. Save your last, you know, the last light on the last Hyundai Genesis vehicle is all set to go. You're happy with how it looks. Do you turn to your Emmy and say peace and walk out the door? Or what, what are the next three days of auto show look like?
Speaker 2 00:56:56 Uh, again, it's, it's because it's still pressed the, those two days of press. Um, they might do stand-ups with executives, uh, you know, uh, uh, a news outlet wants to meet up with the executive talking about the latest greatest car. And so a lot of times they'll ask us to bring fixtures up to highlight either that car. Cause you know, again, in the press environment, we're not at public days, public days is when we're all the cars are exactly where the plot said that they were, um, press is still it's a little, you know, uh, it's still fluid. Yeah. Things are, things are always changing during press. And so I don't always have to hang around too long, but sometimes I have to, I have to hang around for a little while just on ensure that that everybody's content.
Speaker 0 00:57:50 Okay. Are you guys, um, I'm trying to think of the way to, uh, so press not the public do there. Do you place fixtures, like now that you've done a few years of this, was it like the first year? Did you only place the fixtures you knew you would need and then realized, well, crap, I wish I'd hung this thing here and this year and this year. And so now you like drop a couple of extra things around knowing with a relative anticipation that something is probably going to be put somewhere that you didn't expect it to be.
Speaker 2 00:58:25 No, uh, there's no cover your ass and auto shows cause the budgets are, are, uh, in such a way that you have to be, um, pretty specific with your intense. Um, I create what's called a scope document. Um, in the beginning of the process, when, as soon as they tell me how many cars now I know how many cars and I can assign, I can assign how many fixtures per car, um, if there's turntable cars that might have more, it might have like 10 or 12 fixtures to it. Um, and, and so that scope document ends up being kind of the, the purpose document of each fixture. So that way, if, if anything needs to be cut, you know, if they say, Oh, we got to cut our budget by 10%. Well, my first, my first, you know, phrase coming out of my mouth is where do you want it dark?
Speaker 2 00:59:18 Because everything I have, no, I don't have, I have, uh, specific areas for four washes. I mean, I, I focus, I do a focus chart for every fixture in my rig on an auto show because of that reason. So that if they say, Oh, we need to cut 10% of the floor lights. Okay, well, it's going to be really dark. Uh, you know, the, just zooming them out isn't necessarily gonna work. Um, so, so where would you like it dark or is there a place where we can Rob Peter to pay Paul, um, and, and make, make it make you happy? Because ultimately that's the, that's the goal. Okay. And, and so the scope document is really, um, my bread and butter as far as fighting for fixtures, um, and making sure, making sure I have enough to do the job properly. Very cool.
Speaker 0 01:00:11 What, um, so all of this happens show goes great. Everybody loves it. I mean, through the whole process, how are you staying organized? What are you using? Yes. You use iPads and you do email. And, but I mean, there's a lot of details, a lot of, a lot of, you know, console files, show files, Vectorworks files, um, everything else that comes along with it. What do you, what are you doing to stay organized?
Speaker 2 01:00:35 Everything goes through email for, for my show, uh, show management, um, it's it's email, so I can, I can recall any show I've ever done. And if you said, you know, uh, what was Genesis like for 2016, I can go back and I can look through my emails very quickly and find out, uh, cause I have different, uh, folder systems for, for, uh, different aspects of the, you know, if it's rigging, if it's sliding based, if it's brand expectations based, I can go back through and find that very quickly. And then on the actual document side, I run everything through your Dropbox in the exact same format. So I have a folder template that, that aligns everything that I'm seeing in the email is aligned with everything I'm seeing in my Dropbox. And it's just an assembly line because, you know, if, um, uh, uh, a little while back, we were doing 450 shows a year, so trying to track all of that was pretty crazy. And so, so I've found this, that using, using email and using the, um, using Dropbox in an assembly manner. So that, that the first, the next thing that's on the plate is at the top of the list, basically. Um, I go ahead.
Speaker 0 01:01:52 I was just going to say, do you set up automation so that like you get an email into your inbox and it is automatically disseminated into a folder. So then you're not sitting there saying, Oh, this goes in this folder, this goes in this folder, this goes in this,
Speaker 2 01:02:05 No, I just, I, I automatically do it now. I've done it for so long. Okay. As soon as I read it, I drop it in the folder. It belongs in. Um, so that way I don't have to find it later. I'm a zero inbox guy. Like if inbox, isn't it, isn't close to zero, less than 25. I am, I am not happy.
Speaker 0 01:02:27 I'm ashamed. I'm ashamed that I won't even tell you how many emails I have in my head of like 14,000 or something.
Speaker 4 01:02:33 Take it up, buddy, take it up. I can, no, I can't. I can't live like that.
Speaker 0 01:02:39 The current number is two six, six, eight three. So, but here's what I will say. I will say this. So part of the reason why I've done that is because outlook, I'm going to complain about Microsoft for a moment, search the search function and outlook is terrible in my, as, as I've come to discover anyways. And unless I keep it in the inbox, I can't search for it. And so, I mean, just in my experience, that's the, that's the challenge that I've had and that's why I've done what I've done. So, um,
Speaker 2 01:03:11 Well, and that's just it as I, I haven't found an email system that will help me find things as fast as I need to. And so, so that's why I created my system. Um, and also, uh, the name of my folders is always the month and the date of when the show is happening. So again, because it's, because once I'm done with that show, I'd drop it into archives or whatever, uh, for invoicing, things like that. And then the next show is always top of the list, right? Yeah. Because I've number based it, and I do the exact same thing in Dropbox. So that way Dropbox is always, it's just moving up the ladder and, you know, yeah. Sometimes you're working on a show that's three months from now. Um, and you have to kind of navigate through that, but, but at the end of the day, uh, I can make sure that both my email and my Dropbox are, are matched up at any given time.
Speaker 0 01:04:07 Great. No, I like that idea. That's awesome. Cool. Yeah. Um, well that answers, that is a very detailed and wonderful answer. I like that. Um, are there any other, any other project management or software solutions Vectorworks of course for drawing, um, you know,
Speaker 2 01:04:23 Sheets, Google sheets. I, yeah, I actually have a digital tracker, uh, in Google sheets. I run my, I used to run my schedule, uh, for all the, all my employees was on Google sheets and that way everybody could get on their phone. Yeah. And we didn't have to worry about, and so in real time you can change stuff and it's automatically on their phone. So nice. It was a pretty, pretty slick little system.
Speaker 0 01:04:47 Very cool. Um, auto shows are a very comprehensive, lots of pre-show lots of planning, especially when you're walking into a place where, you know, like the Javits in New York, it costs more money to move a pallet from the loading dock to the front door than it does to ship it across the country from New York to LA. Um, planning is critical, which means that there's a lot of your time in that, in that process. How do you, how do you determine what you're going to charge for your time? Um, and then, you know, how did you, how has that S you know, how has that increased or changed over the years? You know, you started down at the bottom rung, you're the guy in the, in the, in the workroom, on the Maxus, like learning how to use it. And now 20 years later, um, you know, you're doing auto shows in Chicago, New York and Detroit and LA, and you're, you're, you're a world renowned lighting designer that has toured with bands all over the world. Um, you know, how, how do you, how have you made that adjustment and how, and how do you change? Like when do you decide, okay. It's time for me to up my rate and then, but how do you charge through the process too?
Speaker 2 01:06:04 Um, well, so, uh, I typically for designs, I do a design fee, um, and that's usually based on an estimate of hours. Okay. And, and then, um, anything that change order or, uh, anything that needs to be adjusted is then done on an hourly scale afterwards. Got it. And then, and then onsite is usually just day rates. And I don't really, I don't really mess around cause I know with the switching around, you know, trying to figure out overtime would be impossible. So it's, it's pretty much just day rates of onsite. Um, including the travel,
Speaker 0 01:06:44 Wait the day rates to make it worth it kind of deal.
Speaker 2 01:06:47 No, no, I'm, I'm actually pretty fair with my rates. I I'm, I'm reasonable. Um, I like to call myself the scraps guy. I'm not always on those big shows. You know, the, the ones that you and John Featherstone do or Merck herring, you know, I'm not, I'm not in Abu Dhabi lending, uh, uh, some palace or whatever. I, I get the, the little shows that have, uh, not as great a budget and, and, you know, they only want an LD programmer, so I can do both, you know, have to wear both hats. Um, and so, so I, I like to say that I'm, I'm somewhere in the middle. I'm not, I'm not real high and I'm not real low. Um,
Speaker 0 01:07:28 Got it. And what, where did you decide? Like when do you decide, okay, it's time to change rates, it's time to go to the next level, or is it just a,
Speaker 2 01:07:37 Do you think your time is a premium, you know, you, and that's, that's one thing that people don't often talk about in this business is that, that your, your time is valuable. Um, and your knowledge is valuable too. And so if, if you get to a point where, you know, you're turning down work all the time. Yeah. It's time to raise your rates, you know, um, if, if you're not getting a lot of work, well, maybe your rate's a little high, um, and find out from people, find out from clients, if they're not calling you back, like, Hey, uh, you know, I thought we did a pretty good job on that last shift. Why didn't, you know, why didn't you call me back? And it might be, Oh yeah, your rates are really high. We just, you know, our, our clientele is, is, you know, two screens in, uh, an, uh, uplight package. Um, so, so we really can't afford, you love to have you on site, you know, but at the end of the day, um, it's just not, it's just not in the, in our, our fiscal budget.
Speaker 0 01:08:37 Yeah. Makes sense. Sounds great. I love that. Um, what are three things you need on every show? It doesn't matter. Auto show, rock show, corporate show, three things you need, no matter what
Speaker 2 01:08:50 A good plan is. Number one first and foremost, uh, I, I love being able to walk in to a venue and not worry. Um, whether it's, you know, worrying about what the crew's going to be like that day, whether it's, uh, you know, you didn't get a good night's sleep because your flight was delayed or whatever. Um, if I, if I've done my job properly, uh, I don't have to worry about the show. I have to worry about the problems that come up. Um, and so, so with that, you know, that's, that's first and foremost is a good plan. Um, second, because I've done so much work on, on athletic apparel, um, a good pair of shoes. I have a lot of shoes. I might have a problem, Jordan. I have probably 50 pairs of shoes. Um, and
Speaker 0 01:09:53 All right. Yes. All right. I'm going to, I'm going to lend you to my psychologist and they're going to guess your shoe fetish,
Speaker 2 01:10:00 Uh, well, when you get them at a discount, you know, it's, it's nice to have, I have shoes that match every shirt in my closet. I do. I have a color for every, uh, every polo, every t-shirt I can match, I can mix and match.
Speaker 0 01:10:18 I love it. That's awesome. Fantastic. All right. Number three. Uh,
Speaker 2 01:10:24 Number three is a good attitude. Um, you know, I I've been able to freelance locally in Portland for the better part of 20 years. And, uh, and so when you're at home, it's different than when you're on the road. And so sometimes you just, you know, you're dealing with your car broke down or your, you know, the babysitter called and couldn't con you know, like you're dealing with life, right? Yep. But every day I would go out to do my job as a freelancer. I, soon as I walked in the door, I set, I set this goal for myself that I would start the day with a good attitude. Um, and that it's always served me well, um, to able to flip the switch like that, no matter, no matter what's going on, we really always need to have a good attitude. Um, because you know, I've had situations where somebody walks in the first day and just like completely annihilates you about something that you had no control over whatever. And, and it really sets a terrible tone for the rest of the gig. And you just feel down and diminished or whatever in some way. Yep. So, so I'm all, I'm all about. Good out too.
Speaker 0 01:11:45 I'm all about it, man. I love that. Um, well, speaking of good attitude that helps to find you work. So as a freelance designer, how are you finding work? What are you doing to actively find work as we're coming out of this pandemic?
Speaker 2 01:12:01 Well, I've, uh, I've started this multi-level marketing, uh, scheme, and, uh, and it's going to take about 10 hours to talk about, but, uh, um, I have this really simple phrase that, um, it works show face, get gig. I've, I've gotten more work because I've stayed present in people's minds. Yeah. Whether, whether it's reaching out on social media, whether it's a phone call, whether it's, uh, sending an email, sending something silly, um, you know, I'll send a bottle of wine to a producer, uh, that I haven't talked to in years because we live in Oregon, we've got great wine here. Um, but even just walking down the halls of a venue, because you're there, you know, you're there to see a show or something, and just walking down the halls to say, Hey, uh, you know, you get, you get work. You get, you know, because people forget about you and it's not because they hate you.
Speaker 2 01:13:03 It's because they're so busy themselves that they, they forget. And, um, I, I was actually, uh, I, I really got into golf when my son was first born and I wanted to build a little cheapo golf simulator in my garage. And so I, I, uh, I called this Avi company in town that I hadn't worked with in a number of years. Um, but I seen one of their guys on a show site and said, Hey, do you guys have some dusty old projector? You know, that that's not making you guys any money and other like, come by and they, yeah, yeah. Come on down, just say hi. So I hadn't seen the owner for like 12, 12 years. Wow. And I walked in the door and he's like, Hey, what's going on? Where have you been? You know, are you still hauling? I said, no, no, no, I haven't started my own thing. Oh, Hey, we've got this show coming up and we need a Lang designer. And here I went, I was just going to go buy a a hundred dollars projector to hang for my garage. I showed my face, I got a gig. And it turned into this, you know, uh, resulted in years of working with them until he sold his company. But, um, it, you know, it's, it's the Jay Leno story again, you know, show up, be present, be in whatever, whatever format you have to just be present. And, and the work will find you.
Speaker 0 01:14:27 Very cool. All right. Now the question you preempted earlier, toughest job you've ever done,
Speaker 2 01:14:34 Uh, it was acquire the fire with you and Alex.
Speaker 0 01:14:37 You know what? I could have totally imagined that right upfront. I knew it. Um,
Speaker 2 01:14:42 No, actually that wasn't, that wasn't, I'm just, I'm totally teasing. But, but, um, one thing that I loved about Alex's, uh, in a podcast with you was the pizza to work ethic ratio. He said, he's like, somebody's got to do a study on that. I totally agree with this. I think it's like MIT needs to be called on this and we have to figure out how much pizza return on investment you get. Yes. With work ethic. That's, that's absolutely brilliant. Um, no, the, the worst, one of the worst jobs I did, um, was a show where, uh, we received the booth drawing and we placed it in the venue drawing. And I did, my complete design was ready to sent it to the rigors. It went through actually like two or three versions before it was figured out that the rigging drawing was that a different scale than the
Speaker 0 01:15:49 Oh,
Speaker 2 01:15:50 The booth layout. So all of the points, everything we did and I'm, you know, I'm meticulous about trying to land on hard points, uh, in a, in a venue like, you know, Javits or one of those, because you know, those nodes are where they are and you can't, you know, bridles are a nightmare and you get lower trim, things like that. And so, so basically it was like all that work that we had done to that point was no, and void I had to, I had to, uh, scramble like a madman to, to make it right. But, um, I definitely learned my lesson. And so that's why my first call is to the rigor to make sure that his drawing matches my drawing matches the venue, drawing matches the show management drawing. And so, uh, so we never have that, that issue in there
Speaker 0 01:16:43 A hundred percent. I've had a couple of different drive at a couple of different times where I get a drawing. And like, we did this one where you have these geometric or not geometric. They were these big rectangles that were at different angles and like, like horizontal widths away from each other. And it was all supposed to fit into a certain space. And like three days before we were supposed to get the final design, I'm measuring everything. And the numbers like are not adding up. And finally I was able to call the designer and she was like, and she's like, no, I'm telling you the numbers are right. The number, well, it turned out she had drawn it in the wrong, the wrong scale. And so it was off by like three feet and we had to figure out how to squeeze all this into this space to make it work. And, um, it was, I was so nerve wracking cause I was, so I was concerned. I was concerned as the technical director crap, did we like totally miss bid all of this stuff on size and spec and thankfully we didn't, but, um, there was a, it was a tough one. Um, so if somebody wants to become a designer, whether auto show concert, corporate lighting designer in general, um, what, what should they be looking to do over the next couple of years to get themselves to that point?
Speaker 2 01:18:02 Um, be a sponge, you know, soak it all up, do every role you can possibly do. Um, I, I, uh, I took a lot of chances in my career. Um, you know, growing up in Southern California, there was a lot of opportunity at theme parks there, you had film and television there and, um, you know, uh, making, making calculated choices that, um, are in your best interests to get you to that goal. And I, I, I talked earlier about having a goal and being goal-driven well, I knew I wanted to be in this business at 15 years old. Um, you know, by my sophomore year I was working professionally as a technician. And so I, I never looked back from that. You know, I, I, I found the school that I wanted to go to right away. Um, and I, I knew I could work in theaters in Southern California and, uh, theme parks and stuff like that, uh, to, to get the experience I needed, but I was going to go, no matter what, I was going to go to college, to get my, my degree in back myself, up in case I wanted to teach or, you know, continue on and become a, I actually wanted to become a scenic designer, um, uh, for a long time.
Speaker 2 01:19:19 And that's actually why my company is called more than light is that I, I, uh, I always look at the project as all, all departments, you know, um, audio, video lighting, like we're all one team and, and encompassing that in a unified vision of design and creativity is, is absolutely key to, to being great at what you want to do. Um, and, um, so, you know, just having, having, uh, an idea of where you want to go, but not being so stuck in your ways and not being flexible enough to try something new, to fail, to, um, to take those chances that will make you down the road. Um, you know, I, I literally, I had the matrix day, I had, I had red pill, blue pill, blue pill being, you know, go about your daily routine, you know, work your nine to five or whatever, or take the red pill and go down the rabbit hole.
Speaker 2 01:20:23 I had the opportunity to go work on cruise ships, um, right after college. And I took it and I took it. I took it in such a way that, uh, I didn't know how life-changing it would be, but all of my relationships STEM from that one decision. I mean, it was literally one phone call changed my life because I was on a ship three weeks later. Um, and, uh, having, having the, the forethought to, to make really critical decisions and you don't even know you're doing it. Um, and, and having that goal helped me do that. That's awesome. So that's, I would say have a goal. Yeah.
Speaker 0 01:21:07 I have a rough, I have a good idea. Write it down, figure out what it is, and then figure out the steps of how to get there. Um, I was never a planner. I can say that I, in, in a lot of ways, I didn't, I intentionally ended up where I am, but it was all on accident. Um, you know, I had done a bunch of other things I'd want to, I actually started in this industry because I wanted to be in the band and I wanted to be a drummer. And then I discovered I was good at some other stuff too. And, and, um, I'm glad that I did. I wouldn't be where I am today. If I had decided to go, in fact, I turned down, I got offered the gig finally, like two or three years after I had wanted it. And, um, I turned it down and I was like, no, that's not, it, it's not the right thing for me.
Speaker 0 01:21:50 And I'm glad I did. I would not be where I am today. Um, I wouldn't have the family, I have, I don't think, and I wouldn't have the, the perspective and the, and the, um, the, just the blessings that I've been able to experience at this point. So, um, and then I would say that actually Mark Herring was kind of like that phone call for me. Um, after I met him on Kia, dealer's meeting back in 2012. Um, the one call that he made asking me to be a TD out on Aramark, uh, completely changed the, the trajectory of where I took my life. And, you know, eventually getting me out of touring, moving me into corporate, building a company, building a business, hiring employees, like all of that was a direct result of him taking that chance and saying, okay, I see something in this kid, um, eight years ago, that could be very beneficial to the rest of our industry going forward. And, um, you know, he w he's been a huge part of that. And I, I thank him on every opportunity that I can because he took that chance.
Speaker 2 01:22:56 Mark, uh, Mark was actually one of the first TDS I worked with on other shows, uh, and, uh, he was on my second auto show or, sorry, third auto show doing key oppress. I did Kia press for 11 years. Oh, wow. Um, and, uh, he was, he was a big part of that for a long time. So, so he and I have a, a great relationship while we can all blame Mark for all of her.
Speaker 0 01:23:21 I'm kidding. Um, no, I, I love Mark. He, he's one of my favorite people in the world. Um, he's been exceptionally kind to me. He's been very forgiving when, you know, I've made mistakes and done stuff that I had to learn from. And he's allowed me to grow into, uh, into a position where I I'm, I'm capable, I'm able to do, you know, I go above and beyond the things that I remember the first time he asked me to take lead on a big, the biggest job I'd ever done, actually for us foods back about five years ago. And I, dude, I was so nervous. I was like, Oh crap. Cause he couldn't help me. He didn't have the bandwidth. Normally he would advance the job and I would come in and execute. And that worked really, really well. And now all of a sudden he's like, Hey, you're going to do this whole thing.
Speaker 0 01:24:06 Um, and actually it was when you and I were in Hawaii, about six years ago that we were just starting the ball rolling for that job. And so I'm up at like four o'clock in the morning. Cause everybody in Chicago is at like 10:00 AM trying to get things. And we're like on phone calls and everything else. And um, you know, and just trying to figure it all out. But, um, if it wasn't for opportunities like that, like you said, you just say, okay, we're going to do this. We figured it out. We executed, it was an outstanding show that went so well. Um, you know, that then brings us to the next step, which then provides the next opportunity, which helps you meet the next person, which then puts you in the right position to get to the, you know, to move down the road.
Speaker 0 01:24:47 Where do you want to go? And um, there's just, there's always opportunity. You just have to be looking for it. And I think so many people get bogged down now like saying, Oh my gosh, there's no opportunity. There's nothing, you know, it's not happening. There is stuff out there, but you have to go find it. You can't wait for it. You can't wait for it to fall in your lap. Um, you know, people ask me, how did you get this? How did you figure this? How did you, I said, man, I just kept talking to people. I kept making phone calls. I kept sending emails. I S you know, that fifth email that goes on answered could, you know, it could be the sixth email that someone responds to because you dropped in their inbox at that one moment that they needed that one person to do that one thing that only you could do, and they grabbed you and they said, come do this. And then that leads to five years' worth of stuff.
Speaker 2 01:25:32 Exactly. And those relationships that you make it, you know, and even just the little ones, the, the guy who's cleaning up the floor in the convention center at two in the morning while you're doing focus still, I struck up a conversation with a guy, uh, who was doing just that while I was focusing. And we talked for maybe five, 10 minutes, you know, I introduced myself, hi, I'm Joe Mac. Uh, about a year, maybe two years later, um, we got a call to do a at that same convention center and, uh, had no idea why we got that call. The guy who was cleaning the floor, ended up being the assistant events manager at the convention center. And he remembered me and remembered the show that we did and what it looked like. And he hired us for that gig. So those little, those little moments with anybody can be the difference between you getting food on your table or not. Yeah. So always be nice, always be pleasant, you know, try. It's nice to be important. It's more important to be nice. You know, I've, I've lived by that for a long time and, um, you know, everybody's important. And, and that gets, that gets lost when you become a big, you know, a big dog, but, mm
Speaker 0 01:26:52 Dude, kindness goes so far. Um, you always attract more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. And I have to regularly remind guys on crews, you know, that get a bat, you know, it's like guys they're, Oh, well, we weren't hired to hang drape. Well, that's what we're doing today. So I appreciate the, I appreciate you letting me know that you weren't hired for it, but we're moving forward anyways. And, um,
Speaker 2 01:27:16 Or, you know, when the chips are down, man, I'll go grab a broom. I had a TV long time ago when I was in college. She said, if you don't know what to do, just go grab a broom and start sweeping the floor because it's always dirty. And so, so, you know, it's, it's, uh, a great way to be. And then people realize that you're on the team, you're doing your part, even if you're not supposed to be doing that. And they'll say like, what are you doing? Get back on the line and cut song ever so well, I saw everybody else tried to clean up. So I thought I'd just jump in. Well,
Speaker 0 01:27:50 As we wrap up here this exceptionally long, this week, we have now set a record for the longest episode ever. Yes, she's into, I'm telling her, um, if, if somebody wants to be, we're coming into Q2 SU you know, two months away, we, as we said, it's going to be a fade. It's not going to be a switch. As soon as everybody feels safe, it's not like suddenly, you know, hotel ballrooms are now all of a sudden full and there's equipment. There's planning. There's, I mean, there's gonna be a lot. There's gonna be a two to three month run-up to any sort of like true serious work. What should they be doing? What should we be doing right now to be ready for that next gig to be more gig ready at the next time we set foot in a ballroom, in an arena, on a field, in a festival, wherever. Um, what are two things we should be focusing on now
Speaker 2 01:28:46 First, um, listened to this program. Cause I, you know, I've been in the business 20, this is my 29th year in the business. Um, and I've learned at least one thing from every guest you've had on your show at just one thing. So always be learning, always absorb what you're listening to, what you're seeing environment, you know, if go for a hike, see nature, it's inspirational. You know, you can take pictures, uh, read a book, listen to music. Um, those are the things that get lost. You don't have to always just know how to push the buttons. Sometimes you have to have that creative vision, uh, to, to get what's what's bothering you. What's fueling you. Um, I actually heard a great quote this week, uh, from Glenn close and she says to create art, you have to have a sense of outrage about something and it fuels you. And it's so true. You know, you, especially this year, we have a lot of things to get out. You know, we're going to see a lot of great music come out of this. We're going to see a lot of great art come out of this. Um, and, and, uh, part of our job as designers is to create that and, and use, use your pain, use your love, use your excitement to, to fuel that, that vision. Um, uh, and, and you're going to produce amazing things. Yeah.
Speaker 0 01:30:24 That's awesome. And number two,
Speaker 2 01:30:28 Um, Hmm.
Speaker 0 01:30:35 It was one thing was so good.
Speaker 2 01:30:39 Well, well, listening to this program was, was, was first thing.
Speaker 0 01:30:43 All right. I, I, I considered that. I thought that was like, it's okay.
Speaker 2 01:30:48 Um, no, I, I have a plan, you know, get your plan in place, whether that means you're calling, calling future clients, potential clients, um, past clients, uh, friends, colleagues get on the horn, um, check in, check in with people, uh, you know, I'm doing it on a daily basis, whether it's on Facebook, I'm just messaging somebody or, uh, an email or a phone call or a quick Pat on the back show face, get gig, you know, that's, that's, that's what you need to be doing right now because when it's time to pull that trigger, and again, if we're aligning ourselves with other vendors and other teams and they get busy, the first person they're going to call is you because you're top of mind. Yeah. And so I think, I think that's what we need to be doing is, is kind of getting our game plan on how we're gonna attack, uh, this tsunami of events that's going to hit us. Yeah.
Speaker 0 01:31:49 That's a good, it's giving me pause for thought. And, um, you're right. I have to spend some time doing that and charting out what that, what is that going to look like? And then make a, you know, if it happens at this time, how are we going to satisfy, you know, all of this, um, cause demand will be great and will be very great. Yeah. And, and there will not be enough people to fulfill it. And so how do we, how do we execute on that? Um, get creative on how to, and in all of that, when there's not enough, when there's more work than anybody can handle people, try and take more work than they can handle. And that's the other flip side of that is knowing your limits. And that's why you have a plan and you say, here's my plan. This is what we're going to stick by it.
Speaker 0 01:32:35 And you stick to it because that if you don't people get tired, people get hurt. People get, you know, there are far reaching consequences from not following that. And now of course you reserve the right to change that plan at any time. And that's okay, but, but go in understanding, this is what I believe I can handle. And then, you know, don't try and kill yourself cause it's just not worth it. Um, you know, we, we will get the money back, you know, you'll get the income back, you'll get like, it will come. It's just, it's gonna take time and it sucks. Don't get me wrong. Do I wish this had never happened? Of course, just like everybody else, but we can get through it. We have to be patient and, and be strategic. And, and we can recover faster from this than we did in 2008.
Speaker 0 01:33:28 I think that we just have to be ready for it. And like, I, I think having a plan is a great idea. Um, it's something that I need to do too. So thanks for that reminder. Um, man, thanks so much. I appreciate it. This was really, really long. And if everybody made it to the end, thank you. You're awesome. We love you. Um, yes, exactly. Uh, please let us know what you thought. Uh, you know, leave a comment, leave a review on iTunes. The show doesn't happen without you. I don't take advertisers. I'm not going to take advertisers. I don't want advertisers. We just want to help each and every one of you guys be better every single day, do better shows, do better things, create better magic. Um, so let us know, send us an email, uh, gig
[email protected]. Tell us what you thought.
Speaker 0 01:34:15 Tell your friends, share this, share it out, send it on the IgE on Facebook on Twitter. However you share. Uh, we're of course on Spotify and on Stitcher and on every other, um, iTunes podcast app. Um, and eventually we might even become podcast 2.0 compliant. We'll see what happens, but uh, thanks so much for listening guys, Joe. Thanks for being here. We really appreciate everything you do. Thank you. I'm very humbled and honored to have them here. Thank you. Cool. Thanks, dude. I hope you have a great day and we'll, we'll talk to you next time. Okay. Thank you. Have a good one. <inaudible>.
