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Speaker 1 00:02:01 <inaudible> good morning, everybody.
Speaker 0 00:02:18 Jordan Goodfellow here, gig ready? We've got an exciting day for you today. We are talking with Alex Fuller and we are going to be talking houses of worship. We're going to be talking lighting. We're going to be talking, lighting, design, set, design, everything that falls within that. I'm really excited to do this. Alex Fuller is with fuller lights. He is one of my great friends. I've known him for forever. I think it's been almost 20 years at this point. Really excited to have him on Alex. Thanks for being here. We appreciate you taking the time. Absolutely glad to be here. Fantastic. Well, let's dive right in, um, houses of worship. Um, I know as your predominant focus, what you, uh, have chosen to set your career on, um, what brought about that, your decision to move in that direction? I mean, you have touring, you have corporate, you've got houses of worship, there's all these different ways. Uh, what, what took you in, in that trajectory?
Speaker 2 00:03:14 Yeah, that's a great question. Um, well, I've kind of done kind of all of those different things and for a few years, and then, uh, I think it was just one day I realized, um, after working for a secular company for quite a few years and being out of ministry, I started ministry, did a lot of ministry, a lot of work for a lot of churches in corporate and, Oh my gosh, this is so bad. I need to start over. Can you edit this part out? I can cut
Speaker 0 00:03:43 It out. Yes. I can fix
Speaker 2 00:03:45 It in post post. Okay. Here we go. I didn't want to answer the question then. Yeah, that's a great question, Jordan. I, uh, you know, I have been fortunate to start off in the house of worship market and doing a lot of different events and for churches and working for a couple of different churches. And, uh, despite what the movie school of rock says, one great rock show, can't change the world. And, uh, I realized that after doing a bunch of, you know, secular events and shows and it was fun and it was great. But then in the end of the day, that's all it was. And, uh, you know, my heart is the capital C church and my wife and I, we love going to church and being part of church and, um, ultimately trying to help people and trying to help the church create new or amazing
Speaker 0 00:04:42 Awesome dude. Um, uh, everybody ultimately needs talented, dedicated, um, educated individuals that understand their craft that understand how to work within, um, the, the confines of, you know, whether it's houses of worship. There's a, there's a certain, you know, I don't want to say stigma, but there's a certain way that you interact with those, especially volunteers and people who aren't paid to do what they do and having that charisma to be able to have that interaction. Um, you know, as you've developed this, uh, you know, the design, the, the, the concept that you're working with and fuller lights, what do you see as your role? When you come into a church setting, someone says, Hey, Alex, we need your help to figure out what we're going to do here. What do you see as your role as a designer and as a, as a lighting designer to come into that situation?
Speaker 2 00:05:39 Yeah. Um, more and more I've realized lately that it's it's education. Like you're coming into that place and you, you ultimately have to, um, educate the people that you're talking to and explain to them why you want to, or why you, why you need to do what you need to do to fix this space or fixed, uh, know their lighting or fix their stage designer, whatever it is that you're, they're bringing you in, because they know that there's a hole or they know that something's wrong, or something can be better. And even if you are an expert in that field, they still want to know why you're going to do that. Why do we need to buy these extra lights? Or why do we need to move these over here? Why is that? And when you can explain that and tell people, you know, and show them examples of it, uh, and they're like, Oh, okay, well, that makes sense.
Speaker 2 00:06:23 And then once you built that trust and then moving forward from there, there doesn't have to be as much education. I don't think because you have built that trust with them, but the initial first conversation and first interaction, it feels like it's so much education more than like, and most times people don't really care about the piece of gear, the, you know, what it, for even what it's going to cost in the end, they want to know that they found the right person, that, you know, values, uh, what they're doing knows that, you know, they are on a budget and people are giving their money to the church for these things. And they're not just like, Oh, let's put the get super fancy thing because we can, it's like, no, you don't really need that. We can put these other things. And then they work just as good.
Speaker 2 00:07:03 And, uh, so a lot of times they are looking for someone that they can, you know, that you can build trust with over time, and then they will continue to call you and bring you back in. But, uh, just educating and knowing that, and don't try to like blow smoke, or like, if you don't know something, just say, you know what, I'm not sure how much that costs, or let me find out what that is. Or I know there's a couple options here. Let me figure out which ones are best for you. And it's okay not to have all the answers. Um, yeah, because the reality is we all, don't no matter how good we think we are, we don't know everything.
Speaker 0 00:07:34 No, we don't hundred percent. Um, uh, I'm learning something new every day. And we actually, I just did a podcast yesterday. We were discussing some of the failures that I know I've had in the past where it's like, man, I didn't set up expectations. Well, I didn't give the best, uh, idea of what something was going to take or how, you know, how it was going to be executed well, um, you know, or, or help my client understand why they needed something. Um, and then, you know, they come back to us and say, well, how come we weren't able to accomplish the goal that was set forth? And then we have to take the time to explain, but thankfully, then we learned from that and we move on and, and helping your, helping your clients, those in the houses of worship volunteers, it's like, you know, someone who goes to work and works construction every day and then comes and volunteers to be a lighting board operator or a camera operator at church. He may not understand why you need eight. You know, ma I almost said Mac two K there, that dates me. Why, why you need a bunch of moving lights to, you know, to light a stage. Why can't we just throw some, you know, throw something up there and pointed at the stage. I mean, is that, does that tend to happen more often than not? Or are you working with churches that have, you know, have hired a lot of professionals and, and you don't have to spend as much time in that sort of education?
Speaker 2 00:08:50 Yeah, it kind of depends because I work with small churches and large churches, you know, the church has, you know, 500 people and it's like the senior pastor calling me talking, wanting to talk to me about lighting because he doesn't have anybody else. He's the senior pastor. He's the lighting guy. He's the video guy. Like he's doing everything. Uh, you know, and then I have, you know, I worked for really large churches that, you know, they have all the typical things you'd see on a large event or video director, lighting director at L one L two, all three, like you have all those people. And so it really, um, and I think that's some of the fun part of my job is that I get to interact with the, the full scope. And so it also keeps you humble when someone calls you and they're like, Hey, I need some help with my lighting. And you're like, okay. And their budget is really small and they're in a small space and a kid would be like, Oh, I'm not going to make much money on that. Forget it. But it's like, no, actually these people need, they need it just as much, if not more than the people that have the big budgets. And so, yeah, it keeps you on your toes and it keeps you, I like the challenge that it's not just the same rinse and repeat thing, every, every show or every event. So
Speaker 0 00:09:58 Regardless of the project size, um, how do you manage a project from start to finish? What is your, what is your preferred order of operation? And we know that they vary, but how do you try and operate when you're looking at a situation and someone just first initial phone call, and then you think, okay, here's the steps we need to walk through to get us to whatever the end result is.
Speaker 2 00:10:21 All right. So I'm going to give you like the nutshell version, cause that's like, it could be a huge, huge answer. Um, but generally, you know, it's a phone call actually. I probably get 80, 90% of my business comes from Instagram, which is just a crazy of how the world, that's how the world is right now. And so awesome. Uh, yeah, so usually I get a contact through there or through my website, we'll shoot an email or a message back and forth to set up a call and then we'll set up a call and kind of talk, chat through what the project is, chat through, what, you know, what they're looking for, what they are hoping to achieve. And then, um, from there, I kind of figure out, uh, you know, on a typical project, you know, they're looking for a design, some type of new stage design or design for either for their event or for their worship space or whatever that is.
Speaker 2 00:11:10 And then, uh, usually I'll do that. And then including in that is like, you know, Vectorworks 3d renders of whatever the design is because I've learned that especially pastors, they might have vision for their church, but they can not envision video walls and lighting setups and scenic elements. They cannot, they don't got that gift. And so, uh, renders are a great way to sell your designs. So I did design and then usually once, um, then I would also be set up the time where I'll be onsite then for the install. So I'd be there for the install. And then I would also, usually depending on the size of event, sometimes I'll either bring in like another LD or I'll bring in other guys that, you know, video directors or, or, uh, uh, media server operators or whatever, the, whatever, you know, whoever the crew is bringing the crew in, or I might just run it myself, depends on budget and size and whatever. And so then I'll be there for the actual event too, and then I'll be there usually through load-out. Uh, and then I usually after that, I'm balanced. So that's kind of overall legit and I'll kind of break it up as like a design. You have like a design fee and then you have on-site labor and then you have, you know, all your rentals and all your equipment and whatnot. So that's kind of in a nutshell.
Speaker 0 00:12:30 Okay. So, um, actually I want to divert a little bit and talk about S call it sales, if you will. Um, in the houses of worship market budget is, is huge. I mean, that tends to be the deciding factor. When you go from a design concept and you present it to, you know, maybe one, two, three design concepts, how do you help the church move from here's what we want to do into the aright. Yes, we're doing it. Here's the decision that is best for what we're going to do. How do you help them navigate that process? That decision process.
Speaker 2 00:13:04 Yeah. First off, I try really hard not to do three designs for someone try really seriously. I, because then every time I do that, it turns into backfire. It always does because it's usually three very different designs. And then they're like, we like this part from this one and this part for this one, this part from this. So let's put them all together. I'm like, no, that those three things don't go together. Otherwise I would have done that already. If that was a better idea, you know, like there's a reason why we don't all use sporks because it's not a spoon. It's not important. It's not good either. Like it's not, it's just not what you do. And so I try really hard not to do three designs. I try to ask a lot of questions upfront when doing a design, you know what, you know, what's your goal for the event?
Speaker 2 00:13:51 What are you trying to achieve? You know, what are all the things? And then, you know, what are the must haves like, Oh, we have to have a TV rollout behind the preacher. Cause we need to, you know, he's going to do that during the teaching. Okay. Uh, we won't have a car come up on like, whatever those things are, like, what are those must haves and that kind of forms the box. And then the very, very last question you always ask is what's the budget. Yeah. No. And so once asking the budget last is hopefully giving you credibility because you've asked all these other questions up to that point of, you know, what are you looking for? What's your dream? What do you want it to be? And then what, what's your budget and what that does is it really, it really gives the designer like a box to design in, you know?
Speaker 2 00:14:32 And I hate when people say, well, there's no budget. Like, well, yeah, there is because I can design a hundred million dollar thing if you have a hundred million dollars. No. Okay. Then there is the budget. So it's even Frank, like tell me what that number is. And then I can design within that. And we're not kind of, we're not wasting each other's time. And so I'll also ask like art direction, like, is there art direction? Is there marketing? Is there anything like that, that the design needs to match? Or is there any implement, you know, pieces of that that we want to try to tie in? So it all kind of feels, you know, it feels, you know, similar. And, uh, so I think that's the big thing. I try to just do one design. I'm like, instead of one, well, maybe waste my time on three designs. Why don't I just give you one? That's amazing. And if for some reason you don't really love it, then I'll do a second one. But usually I'd say 90% of the time they love the first one or we make, you know, we make a little couple of tweaks here and we add some stuff, but they really like it overall. They're super happy. Awesome.
Speaker 0 00:15:31 How do you help them navigate past that? So the one design, I love that idea. I love not doing three designs. Cause I hate doing floor plans, three floor plans. Do them all, uh, never fun. Tons of drawing time. Um, how do you move them from that? All right. Here's the first initial design into the alright boom. It's time to execute because a lot of times I know you have decision by committee, you know, you've got five people trying to make decisions. I mean, how do you move them through that process?
Speaker 2 00:15:58 Yeah, so, well, I think the biggest thing that helps is obviously the deadline of the event. Like, let's say it's Christmas, we're doing a Christmas thing. Christmas is not moving. Right. You'd know that Christmas is on the 25th of December. And so I think if you back that up say, okay, when do you guys want to install? Well, we want to install you and the week after Thanksgiving. Okay, great. No problem. We can, you know, put it in that week and then it's going to come out, you know, whatever first week of January, whatever that then like, okay, now we need to, you know, kind of make, I kind of work it out into, okay. We need to know by this date, you know, the beginning of, you know, November at the very latest we have to pull the trigger November one, if you want these quotes.
Speaker 2 00:16:41 And I try to tell people too, because most vendors I work with, like, if, if you are far, far out, you can, you can get a much better deal. Yeah. You know, like, Hey, I'm looking at I'm eight months out. I need to get a quote on this event. Sweet. All right. Well, you know other shows, haven't got you there near list yet that week there might need, you know, the, all those fixtures might be slammed for some big, huge show that's in town, but they haven't got the gear lists then. So they're given stuff away at this point. Now, if you call them two weeks before, they're going to be all the, all the shows that are needed, it's like, it's top, you know, it's, I'm not, and it might have to go separate. So that means they're going to charge you more money.
Speaker 2 00:17:19 So I try to tell people, I'm like, if you can get your gear list and we get, let's get our quotes in and let's figure out the budget and make everything work earlier, we it's, it gives us a lot more time to negotiate or like arrange like, Oh, Hey, we have to get something from this place and this place, well, let's put it, have the truck go from here to there and then pick it up. And then we save on trucking or you have options when you have time. When it's all last minute, it's just like hurry up. And then, and it just, it is what it costs, what it costs at that point. Um, so I try to say, Hey, you know what, if we can make all the decisions, X date, these prices, aren't good. As soon as we pass this date, I have to go back to my vendors and say, Hey, are these prices still good? Like, it's stuff changed. Like, you know, and so that usually kind of motivates people to, to move forward.
Speaker 0 00:18:03 How do you, um, so setting deadlines, setting timeframes, Hey guys, we got to hit this point. Um, how do you stay organized? How do you keep all of your, you know, all the documents you're working on multiple projects, it's the same time, you know, what are things that you do and then are there, is there any software that you use or any tools that you utilize to help stay organized on all the different projects you're working on all the time?
Speaker 2 00:18:30 No, I'm just kidding. Did I lose the, you lose me
Speaker 0 00:18:35 For a second there now we're back.
Speaker 2 00:18:37 Okay. Uh, I use a lot of sticky notes. No, I'm just kidding. You know, little notes. No, I'm sure I got some style notes around here somewhere. Yeah. Yeah, no, I don't use sticky notes. Um, yeah, I think, you know, obviously I don't really use any in particular like software or anything, obviously besides like, um, you know, Excel and you know, some word docs and folders and just gotta keep it all. Usually I'll have the most active shows that I'm working on or are folders that are on my desktop currently. And then once that show is off, once it's done, then I move it off my desktop. So I have all the most of the current stuff. Right. Easy access. Um, but other than that, like, it's kind of just, you know, typical, you know, keep everything together, you know, your, your file. It's like, whatever the show name is with that year and that stuff, because hopefully you're going to do that show or that event again next year. So you always want to have the dates in all your names for all your stuff. And then, you know, and there you have all your quotes and you have all your drawings and all your renders and all your files.
Speaker 0 00:19:44 Yeah. Okay. And then of course vector works as we already mentioned.
Speaker 2 00:19:49 Yeah. Vector works. Obviously I have all my Vectorworks files, uh, saved. I have files in those folders. And then of also sudden saved on my hard drive and then, uh, external, like obviously all backed up.
Speaker 0 00:19:59 How do you, that actually brings up a great question. So you save them on your desktop. Um, are you a Mac or a PC guy?
Speaker 2 00:20:06 I am a Mac guy. I, it took me the longest time, but I finally did it. And uh, I'm not really like fall on your sword for computers. Like they do their jobs, but I honestly, one of the greatest things about max is like not dealing with all the virus junk. Like why do I have to pay Norton $200 every year to make sure my experiences of virus when I find a PC like that is the biggest racket ever, like talking about conspiracy theories. That's a whole nother podcast, but like it's for Danielle. It's like, thank you, Apple for not making me have to deal with that. Like just that alone. I'm like by math, like don't worry about it. Yeah. I heard, I heard the other day I was listening
Speaker 0 00:20:48 To another podcast. They were talking about John McAfee that, that invented McAfee, ire antivirus. And they were joking about the fact that he created antivirus software after he created a virus so that he could kill the virus. He'd already created it. It's all speculation of course. But you know,
Speaker 2 00:21:04 That's freaking genius, man. I wish I could do that. Tell everybody that they have to wear red shoelaces because if they don't have red shoe laces, then they're all going to get coronavirus or whatever. Then everybody goes by as registry Lacey.
Speaker 0 00:21:15 Oh, perfect. Awesome. I love that. Um, so you get through the pre-show process, the pre event, the predesign get ready for the install. Yeah. Um, now you're on you work your way on site. What are you doing? You know, being in the install side of things, you tend to be on site probably a little bit longer than you are for a three-day corporate show or a rock show. That's one night. What is the, what are you looking for when you're managing the project? Especially working with volunteers, people who are giving up their time, energy effort, they're not being paid to be there. You know, what are you looking for? How are you managing people as they're, when they're on, when you're at a church and onsite?
Speaker 2 00:21:56 Yeah. I think the biggest thing is like, keep it lighthearted, you know, keep people laughing. You'll have some music go on, whatever, because it's not one of those times where we've got to get the rig up in three hours. Go, go, go. You know, cause it's not that like, you know, just kind of hanging and chilling and not like, and usually it's people that want to learn. And so taking the time like, Hey, you know, this is how to wrap a span set around the trust, you know? Okay. Now six more times, okay. Now I have to go check every single one because probably half of them are wrong, but they tried, you know, and like, okay, now we're going to go back and fix it, you know? But they learn something, they feel like they did something and it's like, Hey, we think that spans the time.
Speaker 2 00:22:37 Did it take away longer? Sure, absolutely. And I, and I usually just budget and make sure that we have that time in there. I usually like to have at least, you know, two or three, like pros or people that are either on staff that know what they're doing, but then I'm like, once you have enough volunteers kind of fill in the gaps and uh, you know, then, you know, keep it lighthearted. I think one thing people miss a lot, especially at churches is meals. When you feed people, even if it's just pizza, like that goes so far and it's having meal breaks on time. It's not doing lunch at two o'clock. Somebody forgot to order a pizza until 1230 and then they order it. It doesn't jump up to like, get your lunch breaks and having some snacks and coffee and juice or whatever, like just in the room or whatever.
Speaker 2 00:23:24 So people can do that. And if you can eat lunch onsite and like keep people in the room, like set up a couple of tables and chairs or whatever, let people eat right there while you're still looking at the project, thinking about the project, talking about the project and then, all right, we just ate, all right. Now we're going to go right back to it versus, Hey, let's all go off site for an hour and then we'd come all back. And now we're all lazy. So we just had double doubles from in and out. Nobody wants to work like, like don't like a good verse right here. We're going and you stay in the zone and you get so much more productive.
Speaker 0 00:23:54 Yeah. That's awesome. I love that. Um, and you're right. It goes both ways, whether they're volunteers or they're professionals, man, you give them food. And 90% of the people are like happy. I mean, I can't tell you how many times I've told people. Oh yeah, we got food back in the room, but, and they're like, you have what you're feeding us. Holy crap. That's amazing. Um, so you're right. A hundred percent,
Speaker 2 00:24:16 A hundred. I wonder what he did a study on the productivity and cost analysis for a hundred dollars where the pizza gets you 14 more hours of workout on one person in one day or something, you know, like there's some silly ratio to pizza to work at. I'm sure there is
Speaker 0 00:24:36 How many pieces of pizza does it take to keep someone productive? That's awesome. Right.
Speaker 2 00:24:40 And then minutes then it's after you've hit that lump. It's like, okay, eight beats as it starts to go the wrong direction, you know?
Speaker 0 00:24:47 But then if you add chicken wings in, maybe it ups that number a little bit. Right.
Speaker 2 00:24:51 Awesome. Got some Jesus' chicken. I mean, Chick-fil-A in there and then you've got some serious benefits.
Speaker 0 00:24:58 So what kind of gear are you traveling with these days? What are the things that you're bringing with you when you go to a site when you go to a job?
Speaker 2 00:25:05 Yeah. I purposely try not to travel with tons of stuff. I'm not a big Pelican guy that has to have 50 things. Uh, I do have my backpack and it's got a bunch of stuff in there, but you know, extra hard drives and cables and dongles and all that stuff. I think the, one of the big things that people are most surprised about as a lighting guy that I have, uh, you know, mold, inner ear monitors. And, uh, and I carry those because I usually, when I'm running a show, I usually try to have a wireless pack that I can have the MD in my ears to know what's going on on stage. Especially if it's like a spirit led type of show where, you know, here's the set list. And this is a really, just a loose list of songs that we might play and might not.
Speaker 2 00:25:48 And so if I'm having to kind of punt on the fly, uh, then I, or like busts, especially then I need to know that. But, um, and you can, you know, I had a show that I was doing and, uh, I think it was last year or the year before. And we were doing, um, I was at front of house and I was running, uh, operating the console and it was like eight bands or something, but, and people were calling stuff cues on radio on clear, calm. And, uh, and so I had like a little eight channel nail mixer, six through, and I had, uh, I had my radio in, mixed in through my ears. I had, uh, like coms and I had the MD and I had, um, I think like clicking key kind, all like all that stuff was all going through that.
Speaker 2 00:26:39 So I can all hear it at front of house. Cause otherwise, like there's no way I could everything at the same time, you know, people were calling cues off of different things. We had like audience stages out. And so there's like all these things happening. Um, and so that worked out really well. And so that's something that I brought and carried it. And you have to like, if you play Claire, come into audio thing, okay, I'm going to talk about this for a second. If you don't, it's called a calm dryer. I think it's like a little box. You gotta buy it. I think it's like 50 bucks or something, but you don't put that in line on your calm and you try to plug that into an audio console. It can blow up your comp system. So it's really important to have that. So if you don't know what you're doing, don't do it read through the research
Speaker 0 00:27:19 Dry line. Yes. You need a dry line that does not, that does not have any electrical, uh, because calm for those of you that don't know, calm, carries electrical and audio signal on the same line. And so if you plug it in it, it can cause the smoke to come out, which we know, uh, is what causes equipment not to work anymore when you release the smoke things no longer work. Very cool. So MD, I assume standing for music director is okay. Um, yeah, so that's all, I, I've never even thought about the idea of the console. That's sweet. Um, that's a great way to keep kind of keep in the loop of everything going on and then you're not wearing four headsets and a radio and like, you know, tape and stuff together. I mean, I remember back when we started doing stadium shows and I had two different comms systems that I had to listen to, I had like the TV truck and this side and I had the show in this side and then I had my radio at the same time and like double headsets, double mikes and trying to like that, that I would've liked a little audio console to help me solve that issue.
Speaker 2 00:28:26 Cause you can turn it, you know, turn stuff up or offering like, Oh, Hey, I don't need a notice into this conversation or whatever. I'm going to go turn that off for now or what it is. It worked out really well.
Speaker 0 00:28:36 Super cool. Awesome. Love that. Um, so what are the thing, what are the three things that you need at every job that you go do? It can be, they can be ancillary. That can be physical. They can be, you know, whatever. Like what are three things? If I don't have these three things, I can't be successful at a job that I go to. Even if it's done,
Speaker 2 00:28:55 You mean like I was going to say Dr. Pepper, cool ranch, Doritos and Swedish fish. Is that what you're thinking?
Speaker 0 00:29:00 Yeah. Yeah, exactly. If those are the three things, man, those are the three things everybody's different.
Speaker 2 00:29:05 I'd probably say red bull would probably land in there too somewhere. Um, okay. Um, what are the things I need? Um, plots are really great things to have.
Speaker 0 00:29:18 They, they are, that's a great thing to have. You can't really do much without one of those. Let's put that over there. Huh?
Speaker 2 00:29:26 Great extra copies of plots. The handout are awesome. Yeah. Um, I've had where people were either plots either. And I say plots because it's something that's happened, but like all my printed plots got didn't make it to the show or luggage got lost. They were all in there. So to always keep a set of plots with you or like, cause at one time I had to just pull out my computer and use my computer and Oh my gosh. It was awful walking around your computer, trying to look at stuff. Yeah. Not so boy. I know. Um, but what do I have to have? So plots
Speaker 0 00:30:03 Dr. Pepper, Swedish fish.
Speaker 2 00:30:05 Yes. I also think a good night's sleep is super key. There you go. All right. I think coming in, I think coming into a show or an event with the right attitude, knowing that either if you're going to be working with a bunch of volunteers, knowing that, Hey today is about making progress. It's not about necessarily. We have to have whole break up today. Like, and with clear expectations versus like, if you're coming into a show or you're coming into a stadium or like, Hey, we got four hours to get this thing up. Right. And get it up, like knowing or having expectations and know going into it, what you're going to expect and what your day looks like. And then clearly communicating it to the crew. I think, especially at churches, when you have lots of volunteers, they have no concept of what you're even going to do that day.
Speaker 2 00:30:50 So I think one showing them a render like, Hey, this is what we're going for. And like painting the picture. This is what, we're all, we're all climbing this mountain. This is what we're going for that. Wow. That's awesome. Looking all right. You know, they're all jazzed versus when you don't show them what you're building. You're like, okay, now I'm going to put this trust over here. Now I'm gonna put a light on now I'm going to do this thing. And they're like, well, I have no idea what I'm doing. I'm just waiting. Wow. Now we did that. That's cool. Like they don't know what, like the whole thing looks like. And so when they see that they're like they're bought, bought in instantly and explaining, Hey, so this day we're going to get all the lighting and all the art. We're gonna get all the lighting up and it's all gonna work tomorrow.
Speaker 2 00:31:25 We're going to concentrate on video and then do all the videos or like, and break kind of break it up. Like, this is kind of what the week looks like. And this is what, you know, the next few days look like. And so then people know like, Hey, we're actually ahead or we're behind. And so gives them an idea of, Oh, Hey, we're behind. We need to pick up the pace or Hey, we're ahead. We can, you know, we'll call it early today or Hey, let's get started a little bit and maybe we're going to be able to call it early last day or something like that. I think just communication. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:31:49 That's awesome. Um, that's a great reminder actually thinking about vision, um, you know, people need to know where they're going. And a lot of times we forget that in our industry because we put our heads down, you know, you get the, you put on those blinders and you're like, I, I know that I'm going here. And if they're not, if other people aren't coming with you, if you haven't given them that vision of where you're going, you're right. People just meander suddenly. You're like, well, why did Jimmy he's been gone for 30 minutes? Where did he go? You know, he didn't have that vision or wasn't reminded of that. Um, I love that. That's awesome. Um, thanks for that reminder, by the way, that's a great reminder for me personally, especially with the guys that work for me. I mean, having the ability to cast that vision and where we're going and what we're trying to do,
Speaker 2 00:32:34 Um, it, it's, it's amazing. It's amazing how, you know, without vision, the people perish. And it's really true that when you have vision, it's so much easier and to be on a team, if you're all headed the same way, you know, and when you're all headed the same direction and you all want to get there at the same time, it's a lot easier for someone to grab a hold of someone falls or someone needs help to grab and say, Hey, come on and keep going. We're still going. We're not there yet. Then if, if someone stops and takes a break and you're like, I don't know what we're doing, let's all take a break, you know? And so, uh, yeah, vision's great.
Speaker 0 00:33:06 Yeah. Volunteers and stagehands alike, they all need the, uh, they all need the direction. They all need that vision. Um, we talked about it a little bit earlier,
Speaker 2 00:33:15 Even if the vision is that there will be pizza for lunchtime. Okay,
Speaker 0 00:33:18 Exactly. A hundred percent man. Um, as a freelancer, uh, which ultimately you are, you're providing services on a contract basis, Instagram, you said 80 to 90% of your work comes from there. What else? Like what else are you doing to actively find work, to stay busy, to keep projects coming in?
Speaker 2 00:33:41 Yeah, I think, uh, I've been super fortunate to not have to go after a ton of work. I, uh, you know, my philosophy is kind of always been, you know, do the best you can do and let the work kind of, you know, speak for itself. And then I think why my Instagram is my biggest revenue is because when I am pushing my product or my events or my designs, people are seeing, Oh, wow, that turned out great. He did a great job there. And so it's easy. That is easier for me to say, Hey, this turned out great, super happy with it. You know, God moved. It was an amazing event or whatever. And people see that and like, wow, that was cool. And uh, we want some of that and it's not me like going to them and saying, Hey, you should hire me.
Speaker 2 00:34:24 Come hire me, use me. You know? And so I've been super fortunate in that when I have availability. And when I do have time in my schedule, it's not full. Usually I'll reach out to, you know, either, um, uh, suppliers or like, uh, rental houses that I rent gear from and just be like, Hey, man, just want to let you know, Hey, this month's looking, I'm, I'm open. I don't know if you know of any work or if you know of anything or if you hear of anything, like throwing plates, throw my name out there. And I've found in the past because I am using their gear and I am renting their stuff and I am bringing them revenue. They're all for wanting to give me work. And so, uh, in the past I've had numerous rental houses call me like, Hey, so-and-so this, this company, or this show is looking for an LD for this thing or a designer. Are you interested? I'm like, yeah, I get my number. And, uh, got, just gotten word that I think a lot of it is word of mouth that our industry. Yep. And, uh, you know, people will say a lot, like you're only as good as your last show because of that last one was great. Everybody will be talking about it, if it wasn't, they're also going to be talking about it. Yeah. So, uh, you know, it kind of just makes sure that every event you do is, you know, the best that you can.
Speaker 0 00:35:35 That's right. Awesome. What, how, how are you growing? Your, we're going to kind of diverge here a little bit. Non-production your Instagram following? What did you do to help grow that? I mean, you have, I think you have more followers than anyone else. I know. I know personally company personal, anything except for maybe like PRG, um, like what did you do to actively kind of help create that network within the Instagram world?
Speaker 2 00:36:04 Yeah. Uh, honestly, um, nothing.
Speaker 0 00:36:10 Okay. I mean, that's that, there you go consistently.
Speaker 2 00:36:16 I got to say, I just, you know, yeah. I mean, I think one thing is I try not to just, I try not to just post for posting sake. I'd really try not to. I try to, if I'm going to put something on there, I want it to be something that if I'm scrolling through, it's something that I will actually stop, look and read or, or, you know, I think, yeah, there's all this stuff. And now with all, you know, all the crazy stuff that happens, like if you don't pose this many times, you know, you gotta post regularly and you gotta post this and all the stuff, I think it's just post stuff that like, mean something to you. Don't just randomly post random silly. Yeah. There's a big ear of a pizza during break time, like who cares about pizza? Like you're trying to post something and um, I try to post something that's like inspire that inspires me.
Speaker 2 00:37:05 And so it's inspiring me. Hopefully it's gonna inspire other people. And, uh, you know, that's kinda like whether it's like, you know, sometimes I'll be like tech tip Tuesday and I'll post something on Tuesday. It's like, Hey, this helped me out this week. Or, you know, core, uh, you know, either, you know, do the whole like throwback Thursday night, maybe it's post like an old event that I thought went well or it was fun. Okay. Um, but you know, I think too, obviously you can getting a little more nerdy about it, you know, you need to figure out your demographic and your audience to, when are they on, like, when are they going to be on, like, I know most of my people are going to be sitting around, you know, a lot of texts at church are going to be there for numerous services on the weekend. And so they'll probably watch a service or two, but then they'll also probably be on their phones during service. And so if I can post something on during
Speaker 0 00:37:55 The week technicians, don't tell the pastors.
Speaker 2 00:37:58 Yeah. I mean, they're probably looking at, you know, solutions for problems that their pastor asked him. I'm sure that's what it is exactly. And so, you know, if I can try and post something on Sunday or on the weekend, you know, usually I'll get more traffic or more, um, you know, more hits because people are on, most people I know are doing it. And so, and even from like East coast, the West coast, like timing when you post stuff. So there is all that kind of super nerdy stuff that you can figure all that stuff out. But, um, I think the biggest thing is I try to just post stuff that I think is actually inspiring, which cool. And I would want to actually see. So yeah, that's fine.
Speaker 0 00:38:38 I mean, I see you jump on stories a lot. Talk about whatever's going on at that moment. I think I saw something this morning. You were at Costco or whatever yesterday.
Speaker 2 00:38:47 Oh, I don't even bring that up. Don't even talk about that. Yeah. So I try to do stories. Stories are kind of like for me, stories are the things that, you know, I might want to mention or talk about or show, but I don't necessarily need it to be up there for the rest of the world to see forever. Yeah. And it's kinda more of a snapshot of like, Hey, you know, this is what's happening in my day to day. And yeah. So I try not to, and I try to, for me, um, my fuller lights, uh, at fuller lights on Instagram, just on it. So, uh, anyways, uh, at the end, don't worry. I figured, I figured. Um, but that is, um, more of a business one, like that's my business account. Um, you know, I, and I have a little bit of personal stuff on there, but mostly it's business like it's work.
Speaker 2 00:39:37 And so I think if people can have a work, if, you know, if their job, if it makes sense to have a work Instagram, then do that. And if you have a personal one that has a personal one, because you know, I'm not going to post pictures of like, you know, when my kid was a baby and they're just first walking and then I have the next day, like check out this sweet rig of 200 moving lights like it. So you have to know what your brand is. I think too. And I think I worked really hard to make sure that my brand is, uh, you know, I want people to know I will not be the cheapest. Like when you, if you need to hire me, I'm not going to be the cheapest now I'm also, um, you know, not going to be the most expensive either.
Speaker 2 00:40:21 Like, yeah, there'll be more people that are more expensive, but they're also be people that are cheaper, but I'll be in the middle. And, uh, you know, I'd like to think you get what you pay for. And so, um, and I think, and I'm okay with that. I'm okay. It was something to be able to stay in, Hey, that's too much money. I'd say, okay, no problem. And I give discounts to different things and depending on, you know, the church or the whatever, you know, whatever the season is. And, um, but at the same time, I'm like, I need to feed my family also. So I have a fund for feed to starving children in their mind. So,
Speaker 0 00:40:53 So what, what, uh, I agree with that first off on the Instagram, it's like, you know, personal business, um, I used to years ago have the same thing for both and realized like, you know, set that focus, put that direction, and then you, it's a lot easier to pull content inside of those buckets. Um, from that standpoint, instead of always trying to figure that out. Um, so back into the production world, what, what's the toughest job that you have ever had to do since you came into the industry when you were actually technically, I guess before you were out of high school at that point, cause your dad owned a, a lighting company and everything else, but in the last 20, some odd years,
Speaker 2 00:41:35 The toughest job. Yeah. Hmm. Um, I haven't gotten that question a long time. Well, I think probably there's like, you know, an event that didn't go, like if an event didn't go well for either lack of planning or lack of experience or lack of knowledge that, you know, that's always a bummer, but, um, you know, I think probably the toughest job, I'd say, uh, I worked for a secular lighting company for a bit and, uh, I was a manager and I had, I dunno, maybe 10 people, uh, report to me and were doing live events and stuff. But most of the people were older than me and I was probably 25. Maybe I hadn't like, I hadn't, you know, I'd done some stuff, but I didn't really understand exactly li like leading and, and, uh, I was just really young. Yeah. And so, uh, you know, I think that was probably one of the harder jobs.
Speaker 2 00:42:37 Cause I'm like trying to manage all these people and it's different when you manage, like when you go into an event and you're doing a load in it's like union guys are all like older than you or whatever. And you know, they've been doing it five times longer than you've been alive or whatever, but it's like, Hey, I'm going to interact with you five times. And I'm like, just put the trust together, bro. Like, I don't need attitude just fricking pulled together. But, uh, you know, I think it's when you, when you are with people and it's like months and months and months, years of, you know, like you're trying that, that was probably the hardest because I don't think I really, I didn't feel like I was set up to win very well. My boss that I had above me, I don't think he was the greatest boss.
Speaker 2 00:43:16 And he wasn't really like really good at training or mentoring or anything. And so it was kind of just like, I felt like I was on an Island trying to do this and I'm like, I don't know what the heck I'm doing. And uh, and it wasn't like, they were the greatest, um, they were good workers, but they weren't like, they got the job done, but it was like, okay, we got the job done. We're done. Like, you know what I mean? He was going above and beyond. And number two, we wanted to, you know, aspire, get a raise, like, you know, nobody really wanted to like work their way up. Everybody was just like, I'm S I'm happy with doing what I'm doing and I don't want to do anymore. Yeah. And so it's like, and so I didn't even realize at the time, like how hard it is, the motivate people that are unmotive unmotivated, if you know, um, the don't really care to be motivated.
Speaker 0 00:44:04 They just want to clock in, clock out, you know, get back home, grab a beer, sit on the couch and do their thing.
Speaker 2 00:44:11 Right. Which is fine, which is fine. Like, if that's what you feel like you're supposed to do with your life, then go for it. Like, that's great. We need tons of people like that in the world and no disks to like garbage men, but garb, like if we didn't have garbage men or male thing about mailman, like they go every single day driving the same road. I couldn't do that. I would, I would like that, that lady looked at me funny, I'll be there tomorrow. Like, whatever lady, you know, like I would, I couldn't do that. And so I I'm super grateful for all those types of people, but when you're trying to manage them and encourage them and try to get them to do more, it's extremely difficult. Especially when you don't have a clue, like how to do that. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:44:52 No, that's great example. Um, certainly tough. What, uh, so you've grown through that. You've continued to grow. What do you like most now that you've kind of picked the direction you want, you know, your career, your job, your business, whatever you want to call it, what do you like the most about doing it?
Speaker 2 00:45:10 Yeah, so actually, um, I think design is definitely one of my favorite things to do. I love design of talking about design. I love to encourage people about design design is one of those things where, uh, great design, um, should not need to be explained. Like when you see amazing design, like you see it and it, you should just be like, wow, like, duh, like it doesn't have to be this thing where someone has to explain it or walk you through it or whatever. And, you know, even as like with a rock and roll show or a big show, like I designed can, you know, evolve as the event happens or as the night or as the show progresses, but there's no point where you have to explain what's happening. It's just doing something you're like, wow, that's cool. Or, wow. Wow. And you don't have to, it doesn't have to explain.
Speaker 2 00:45:55 It's like, I use this example a lot because I think it's just so amazing. But you know, everybody's made some Wars where you got your marshmallow, you got your Graham Cracker, your chocolate bar. Well, your Graham Cracker and your chocolate is square and you got around marshmallow. So then they finally came out with square marshmallows. I'm like, seriously, how did it take 20 years to come up with a square marshmallow? Right. They're just like, duh, it's, it's a great design and it works perfect. And it's just like, duh. And, uh, you know, and so I think, you know, I love talking about design. I also love mentoring and pouring into guys and, you know, raising him up and, and ultimately about a lot of interns and a lot of, uh, guys that guys and gals that I've got to be able to pour in and train.
Speaker 2 00:46:40 And, uh, you know, I'm always encouraging them and saying, you know, I hope that you guys are able to go further, do more, do bigger events, do larger events than I ever did. Like, that's always my goal. And if I can train myself out of a job somewhere, then I'm a great, then I'm doing a good, then I'm doing good. Like, I don't, I'm not afraid of someone coming in and taking my job. If I can usually at events, I will try and bring in other LDS or we'll try and bring in other younger guys that maybe haven't had the shot or had the opportunity. And, um, you know, I also am making sure it's going to be a win-win environment. So I'm trying to, like, if I have an event where I need a certain stylistic type programming, I'm going to go find a programmer that that is their style.
Speaker 2 00:47:24 And so it's not like trying to force them to fit some mold that they're not used to it's I can put them there and I say, Hey, do your thing. And then I'll just of tweak and adjust as we need to, um, with, with that. And then I'm like, they're in a safe environment. I'm there. I can jump on the console I have to, and I'm interference from the client. So I'm like, it's a super safe environment for this person to come and try something new. And it's usually win-win for both of us. And so that's awesome. Uh, yeah, so I really loved being able to, you know, train and duplicate and teach. Um, yeah.
Speaker 0 00:47:55 Great design speaks for itself. Mentoring and training is, is by far the best way to grow and learn, um, and help people get better at what we do. Uh, that's fantastic. Um, so I want to become a lighting designer, a designer in the house of worship. If that was me, what would you say be going to the mentor side of things. Here are the things that you need to start doing now to get into this world, to work into being a part of houses of worship, design creation, all of that. What, what are, what are some things I can do work to work into that world?
Speaker 2 00:48:37 Yeah. I get this question a lot. Um, you know, I w I want to do what you do. How do I do that? You know, and isn't that a question that I get a lot and, um, you know, I, I usually try to tell people I'm like, start with where you are, you know, wherever, wherever you're at, wherever, if you're in school still, or if you're, um, you know, if, if you have job or whatever, and you want to switch careers or like start where you're at, like, where are you going to church? Start volunteering there, start volunteering, you know, say, Hey, I want to learn lighting, go to your church and go to the lighting guy and say, Hey, I want to volunteer. What can I do to help and start there? Yeah. Now, I mean, beyond that, if you really wanted this for living, you need to find someone to be able to mentor important to you.
Speaker 2 00:49:23 You need to, um, you know, I'm not a huge fan of like going to college for this because I don't really think it's necessary. I think it's a huge cost if you are, or you're not sure go to college, Guinness associate's degree as fast as possible. And then, then go do what you want to do. Because 90% of the time people are like, Hey, did you go to college? And you can say yes. And they said, did you get a degree? And you can say yes. And then the train, and then a conversation moves on. Don't even ask these days what your degree is in. Because most people aren't even working in that field that they got their degree in, in the first place, but they still are paying those student loan payments. So why don't you just skip that slam on associate's degree really quick at a local college in a year or two.
Speaker 2 00:50:07 And then, uh, and then if you want to go do your own thing, or you can continue to do lighting or production on the side while you're doing that. Um, but if you can, you know, get hired at a local production company and really just learning everything you can in it, the reality is this business is all about who, you know, yes it is. And so hopefully by, you know, working your off and making connections, um, you know, that that person will give me the one that give you to your first shot to, you know, to an event or a show. Yeah,
Speaker 0 00:50:36 There's a, a, there's actually one of the guys that works here at gig rent. Uh, Michael, he was operating, lighting up in the booth when I first met him two and a half years ago. And, uh, he called me one day and he's like, Hey, you know, I'd love to start learning more about what we do and all that stuff. And he was at church every single Sunday, boom, boom. You know, and like just they're quiet doing his thing. And all of a sudden, one day I needed somebody to cover a prep for a job. And this was about a year and a half ago and I called him up. I'm like, Hey dude, I know you talked to me about wanting to learn some stuff, you know, do you want to come into the shop? And I'll pay you to start doing this? You know, at the time he was working at home Depot, he had just finished high school.
Speaker 0 00:51:17 Um, and now it's been a year and a half later and he's full-time for us now. And he's traveled all over the country and he is an expert at led repair projector repair. I mean, like he's gone from nothing to being an incredibly critical part of our team in 18 months. Like we can't do work without him now, you know? And then just in that short span of time, I mean that you're right. Start where you are get involved. You never know what opportunities are going to come from that. So, so the way that I end go ahead.
Speaker 2 00:51:50 Oh, I was going to say the other thing I was gonna say is, um, when you do finally get that event, there's two, there's two things you need to make sure one, you need to be good. Like you need to actually have some skills and be good, but you also need to not be a douche. Like you need to not be a tool because I would, and I'm sure Jordan would agree with me on this one. I would always take the guy that's maybe not as good technically, but as a way better hang than the guy, that's like amazing knows. He's amazing. He's got a huge chip on his shoulder, just all his ego. And, but he's a total tool to be around. Like I I'd rather take the guy that's not quite as good and more fun to hang with than the guy that's amazing. Right. Yeah. Right. We want to work with tools. We just, we don't want to hang around with tools a hundred percent. That's awesome. Love. It could be a t-shirt right there. There you go. Work with tools. Don't there you go. Exactly. I love it. Or whatever. So yeah.
Speaker 0 00:52:48 Yeah. Every, every episode I ended up asking the exact same question to everybody, which is what are two things that I, the listener can be, um, can be doing to be more gig ready next time. So I just finished a gig last week in this case two months ago. Um, you know, the next gig might not be till August or September, November 20, 25. We don't know yet, but I want to be more gig ready. I want to be better, more prepared the next time I step foot on that field of show them, what can I be doing now to be there?
Speaker 2 00:53:29 Yeah. I think obviously sh you know, sharpening, sharpening your tools and, you know, sharpening your craft. And if you're a designer, you know, start designing, you know, you can get SketchUp for free. Obviously I would recommend Vectorworks, but I'm like, okay, let's say a client comes to you and says, Hey, we have five grand or 10 grand or whatever, or a hundred grand do what is more, you know, what's more the reality. Are they going to call and say, Hey, I have $10,000 million. I can call it. And so you got 3 million. If they do have 3 million, then call me, cause I'll come work for you also. But, uh, you know, design design, like it's, it's fun to do that and put down like, you know, 2 million moving lights on a re you know, that's cool. Your computer probably is going to crash, but it's cool.
Speaker 2 00:54:13 But like do something that's actually going to make it better, you know? Or like, you know, something that you actually think someone's actually going to ask you to do. And, uh, you know, practice that, practice that and see what can you do? Or what design can you come up with? Or what tweaks can you make to an old design, you know, do something that actually will, you know, make you better. And I think too, once you then design that thing, uh, you know, send it to a couple of your friends and say, Hey, what do you think about this? I know that I, I have a couple people in my life that even when I'm working on designs at forum stuck, or I'm like, I really feel like it's missing. Like, there's, I'm like 85% there, or 90% there. And I'm missing. There's one thing I can't like, what is that thing?
Speaker 2 00:54:55 And I have a couple of people that all, if shoe designed to them, like, Hey, tell me what you think it is. Tell me what you love, tell me what you hate, you know? And so building that when it's not like a critical time building that community, building that friendship is huge. And, and know that those people, those people that you're talking to, they should be your friends. And you should look at them as a friend, not as a competitor. I think that's one thing in our industry. It's crazy how a friend, he can also be a competitor. And I'm like, I have friends that we have both, like, I've been on a job and I heard he was bidding on it. Or he called, he was like, Hey, did you get asked a bit on this? I'm like, yeah. He's like, Oh, I've been out too.
Speaker 2 00:55:30 I'm like, sweet. Well, why don't you do this one? I'll do the next one or whatever. Like, we're not going to bid against each other because honestly our friendship is more important than an event. It's more important than, you know, a paycheck. And so, um, you know, and so I think because of that, like in the, Oh, Hey, I'm busy this week, Hey, I'm going to throw this job to you because you gave me the last one or whatever. And like, you know, you reap what you sow karma whenever you want to call it. Like, that is a thing that, um, you know, I think that that's one of the reasons why I, you know, hopefully been successful and able to continue to be successful in the future.
Speaker 0 00:56:04 Totally kindness, compassion looking out for those that are around us. I mean, people need that. And sometimes people just need that leg up. They need that. They need that incur. They need that encouragement, that moment of saying, Hey dude, you know what? You take this, you know, you're going to do a great job with it. I'll take the next one. And then nine times out of 10 found when I do that, something that was actually a better fit for my skill set from my company, skillset comes around like the next week, uh, you know, or, or whatever that looks like. And all of a sudden you were worried about, Oh crap, how am I going to pay the bills next month to Holy crap. Now I've got more than enough. Um, yeah, for sure happens. That's awesome, dude. Great. Uh, great words of wisdom. I mean, working on design is huge learning what works and what doesn't, um, and then feedback from other people helping to figure that out. Those are great.
Speaker 2 00:56:58 So I think I'm gonna, I'm going to add one more, uh, gear wise. I'm not a huge gear head. Like I don't want to talk, I don't sit around talking lumens or how many, you know, Crio is this thing, you know, all that kind of stuff. But I also do know what gear is on the market and what gear is the right gear for that solves the problem that the client has. So you need to be aware of the stuff that's out there just because when the client comes to you and says, Hey, you know, we want to do X or we want to do Y or Z like, Oh, okay. Yeah. I have a couple of options. Here are the couple of options. And here are the price points on those options. Or these are the options. Let me get quotes on those or, you know, and then you are, cause you want them to continue to come to you as, Hey, we have a problem. You come have the solution, you know, and even it's okay, you have that problem. Yeah. I think I have a couple of things. Let me make a couple of phone calls and I'll get back to you. Like you don't have to necessarily give them the solution immediately, but you have to know that you will get them the solution that they're looking for.
Speaker 0 00:57:56 Awesome. Cool, man. Well, thanks for coming on today, talking about houses of worship, talking about design, uh, super fun and exciting love to be able to discuss it. Uh, how can people reach you? How can they get ahold of you? What's the best way to get ahold of fuller lights, whether they just want to ask a question, get feedback on their design. Um, what's the best way.
Speaker 2 00:58:19 Yeah, so obviously I'm on Instagram, uh, at fuller lights. And if you just direct message me, I usually respond within a day or so, depending on if I'm on show side or whatnot, um, there, or you can go to my website, uh, floater lights.com and it has a bunch of information and resources and different things, uh, there. And, uh, you, those are kind of the two, probably the two best places to go and get me. Um, also my email is just polar lights at Gmail. For those those on video, there you go.
Speaker 0 00:58:52 Oh, it's hard to see now fuller lights. You can see it. It's not, uh, uh, it's disappearing into the, into the nether.
Speaker 2 00:59:01 There you go. So folder, uh, yeah, so those are kind of the best ways to find me. Um, but cool. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:59:09 That's great. Love that. Um, well thanks so much for taking time to hang out today and really enjoyed the conversation. It's always great to catch up and, uh, learn more, get more knowledgeable and, uh, hopefully we'll be able to do this again sometime. Thanks a lot. I appreciate it. Yeah, that'd be great. Thanks for having me on Jordan. Awesome. Have a great day. Thanks so much for taking the time to listen today. I know that as a professional each and every one of us want to be better tomorrow than we were today. That's why we've created the gig ready podcast. This is a place where professionals can come and look at what they're doing. Look at how they're doing it and get better. Every single day. We are solely value for value. We're not going to take corporate interests. We're not going to take sponsorship money. We want you to get better solely because that's what you want. So please give us some feedback. I want to get better. I want to create better podcasts. I want to create better events, just like you do. So if you have some value, you want to give back ideas, thoughts, questions, even, even the ability to be a little critical at times. I would love to hear from you. Thank you so much. I hope you have a great day. Stay safe out there and stay. Get ready. <inaudible>.
